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I think there is an important point missing in the debate. This is an extradition hearing. It doesn't matter whether Assange is guilty of the alleged crimes the

I think there is an important point missing in the debate. This is an extradition hearing. It doesn't matter whether Assange is guilty of the alleged crimes the US has come up with or not, what matters is whether he is expected to receive a fair trial in the US and whether the potential sentences in the US would be roughly on a par with what he'd expect for the same alleged crimes in the UK. For all I can see, this is definitely not the case. You can even make a case that almost nobody should be extradited to the US by any country, since the US justice system has serious flaws, might not be just at all (e.g. it has about 10 times longer maximum prison sentences than in the rest of the civilized world) and the US penal system constitutes a constant human rights violation. For example, the administrations of many US prisons are notoriously unable to prevent the raping and murdering of their inmates. I've even heard people from the US making jokes about prison rape, as if that was to be expected and part of the "justice". As another example, a prison in Illinois was under 23 years of permanent lockdown, meaning that all inmates were in isolation for 23 years. There are credible accounts that Assange is facing imprisonment in high-security isolation facilities similar to what they did to Manning for a long time. I cannot understand why any civilized person would allow a treatment as inhumane as in US maximum security prisons with isolation, regardless of the crime. Generally speaking, countries should review their extradition treaties. US justice is non-proportionality based on revenge and involves frequent human rights abuses. The same is true of other countries like Japan or Russia, but AFAIK extradition requests to these countries are much rarer.

Fjolsvith 7y ago
> As another example, a prison in Illinois was under 23 years of permanent lockdown, meaning that all inmates were in isolation for 23 years. You do refer to USP Marion, Illinois, which was the US's Supermax prison during that time. They held the most dangerous, violent prisoners, and of course, kept them locked down for security reasons. [1] I spent a year there after they downgraded it to a medium security facility. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Penitentiary,_Marion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Penitentiary,_Ma...
- jolmg 7y ago
  > They held the most dangerous, violent prisoners, and of course, kept them locked down for security reasons. How valid is that argument? It seems like you could use it to justify doing anything to them. The link you gave specifies: > Norman Carlson, director of the Bureau of Prisons at the time of the Marion incident, said that ordering the permanent lockdown was the only way to deal with "a very small subset of the inmate population who show absolutely no concern for human life." Do I understand that everyone was potentially added 23 years to their sentence because of a few inmates they had nothing to do with? And the justification you give is that they're all dangerous, so it's ok? I imagine that seeing them as dangerous and violent comes from the crimes they committed that put them there. Is there no expectation at all that they would rehabilitate with their time there? I wonder how the US compares on these matters (especially the public expectation of rehabilitation) with other countries (re: "US justice system has serious flaws" as jonathanstrange put it).
  - Fjolsvith 7y ago
    > Do I understand that everyone was potentially added 23 years to their sentence because of a few inmates they had nothing to do with? And the justification you give is that they're all dangerous, so it's ok? No, you misunderstand that. Just because the inmates are locked down for 23 hours a day (allowed out for exercise) doesn't mean that they don't get released at the end of their sentence, when the judge ordered them to be released. When I came into the federal prison system, I flew from Seattle to Denver to Oklahoma City on Con-Air. At the stop in Denver, a boarding inmate was seated by me and struck up a cheerful conversation. He told me he was thrilled to be out and about, that he was from the Supermax in Colorado Springs. He said that going out for court was the only time he got to eat cheeseburgers. Said he had to try to kill a guard in order to get sent out. I never saw him again after that flight. I was in three prison riots. Literally backed in a corner and fearing for my life. After each one, the facility was locked down for a long time. Not just the few guys who were involved in the riot, but everyone. When there are security issues that threaten the safety of staff, all the inmates are locked down. There is no right to freedom in prison. I never was in a Supermax. I was in medium security the whole time. I got to eat cheeseburgers. I learned how to draft, both by hand on the board and in Autocad. I played a lot of D&D. But you would probably have had to been there to understand fully. Edit: Almost all inmates in Supermax are doing life sentences, so I don't know how their sentences can get extended.
einpoklum 7y ago
> This is an extradition hearing. It doesn't matter whether Assange is guilty of the alleged crimes the US has come up with or not, That can't be true. For an extradition to happen, the requesting party must provide some evidence - not for a conviction, but to establish that the charges were made in good faith and that it is not unreasonable that the accused will actually be found guilty. States can't just frivolously request extradition. AFAICT. > You can even make a case that almost nobody should be extradited to the US by any country Yes, for the reasons you gave and others.
- bjornsing 7y ago
  It’s perhaps not called extradition within the EU, but Sweden sought the “extradition” of Assange without even formally charging him with a crime.
  - einpoklum 7y ago
    It is extradition. They demanded he be extradited to Sweden to question him. He suggested a questioning in the Ecuadorian embassy but they refused.
    - markdown 7y ago
      > They demanded he be extradited to Sweden to question him This was all for show. https://www.republik.ch/2020/01/31/nils-melzer-about-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange https://www.republik.ch/2020/01/31/nils-melzer-about-wikilea...
      - einpoklum 7y ago
        I didn't say the demand was legitimate, but it was still an extradition request...
  - multjoy 7y ago
    That was under the auspices of a European Arrest Warrant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Arrest_Warrant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Arrest_Warrant
stephen_g 7y ago
True. Of course, that may not matter. From her behaviour, the judge appears to understand the outcome the hearing is expected to produce, and as Mr. Murray fears in the O.P, it seems like nothing said in court is going to affect that...
mzs 7y ago
Please don't speculate, simply to get to the point of the hearing Assange is having now The US needed to provide: >a prosecutor's affidavit describing the facts of the case, including dates, names, docket numbers and citations, and preferably executed before a judge or magistrate (particularly if extradition is sought from a civil law country) >copies of the statutes the fugitive is said to have violated, the statutes governing the penalties that may be imposed upon conviction, and the applicable statute of limitations … >… certified copies of the arrest warrant (preferably signed by the court or a magistrate) and of the indictment or complaint >… evidence of the identity of the individual sought (fingerprints/photographs) and of the evidence upon which the charges are based and of the fugitive's guilt in the form of witness affidavits (preferably avoiding the use grand jury transcripts and, particularly in the case of extradition from a common law country, the use of hearsay) https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/98-958.html#_Toc463609382 https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/98-958.html#_Toc46360...
- carterehsmith 7y ago
  Wait, what is this "everycrsreport.com" -- is that some kind of authority on.. things? Should we trust it? If so, why?
  - mzs 7y ago
    It's a search engine for Congressional Research Service Reports and is easier to copy/paste from into HN than the PDFs themselves: https://crsreports.congress.gov/search/#/0?termsToSearch=98-958&orderBy=Relevance&navIds=4294967262 https://crsreports.congress.gov/search/#/0?termsToSearch=98-...
    - carterehsmith 7y ago
      Thanks... though I think it would be great to refer to original sources, rather than some random site that adds... what value? They do add Google Analytics/tracking, I would not consider that "added value".
      - 7y ago

Fjolsvith 7y ago

> As another example, a prison in Illinois was under 23 years of permanent lockdown, meaning that all inmates were in isolation for 23 years. You do refer to USP Marion, Illinois, which was the US's Supermax prison during that time. They held the most dangerous, violent prisoners, and of course, kept them locked down for security reasons. [1] I spent a year there after they downgraded it to a medium security facility. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Penitentiary,_Marion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Penitentiary,_Ma...

jolmg 7y ago
> They held the most dangerous, violent prisoners, and of course, kept them locked down for security reasons. How valid is that argument? It seems like you could use it to justify doing anything to them. The link you gave specifies: > Norman Carlson, director of the Bureau of Prisons at the time of the Marion incident, said that ordering the permanent lockdown was the only way to deal with "a very small subset of the inmate population who show absolutely no concern for human life." Do I understand that everyone was potentially added 23 years to their sentence because of a few inmates they had nothing to do with? And the justification you give is that they're all dangerous, so it's ok? I imagine that seeing them as dangerous and violent comes from the crimes they committed that put them there. Is there no expectation at all that they would rehabilitate with their time there? I wonder how the US compares on these matters (especially the public expectation of rehabilitation) with other countries (re: "US justice system has serious flaws" as jonathanstrange put it).
- Fjolsvith 7y ago
  > Do I understand that everyone was potentially added 23 years to their sentence because of a few inmates they had nothing to do with? And the justification you give is that they're all dangerous, so it's ok? No, you misunderstand that. Just because the inmates are locked down for 23 hours a day (allowed out for exercise) doesn't mean that they don't get released at the end of their sentence, when the judge ordered them to be released. When I came into the federal prison system, I flew from Seattle to Denver to Oklahoma City on Con-Air. At the stop in Denver, a boarding inmate was seated by me and struck up a cheerful conversation. He told me he was thrilled to be out and about, that he was from the Supermax in Colorado Springs. He said that going out for court was the only time he got to eat cheeseburgers. Said he had to try to kill a guard in order to get sent out. I never saw him again after that flight. I was in three prison riots. Literally backed in a corner and fearing for my life. After each one, the facility was locked down for a long time. Not just the few guys who were involved in the riot, but everyone. When there are security issues that threaten the safety of staff, all the inmates are locked down. There is no right to freedom in prison. I never was in a Supermax. I was in medium security the whole time. I got to eat cheeseburgers. I learned how to draft, both by hand on the board and in Autocad. I played a lot of D&D. But you would probably have had to been there to understand fully. Edit: Almost all inmates in Supermax are doing life sentences, so I don't know how their sentences can get extended.

einpoklum 7y ago

> This is an extradition hearing. It doesn't matter whether Assange is guilty of the alleged crimes the US has come up with or not, That can't be true. For an extradition to happen, the requesting party must provide some evidence - not for a conviction, but to establish that the charges were made in good faith and that it is not unreasonable that the accused will actually be found guilty. States can't just frivolously request extradition. AFAICT. > You can even make a case that almost nobody should be extradited to the US by any country Yes, for the reasons you gave and others.

bjornsing 7y ago
It’s perhaps not called extradition within the EU, but Sweden sought the “extradition” of Assange without even formally charging him with a crime.
- einpoklum 7y ago
  It is extradition. They demanded he be extradited to Sweden to question him. He suggested a questioning in the Ecuadorian embassy but they refused.
  - markdown 7y ago
    > They demanded he be extradited to Sweden to question him This was all for show. https://www.republik.ch/2020/01/31/nils-melzer-about-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange https://www.republik.ch/2020/01/31/nils-melzer-about-wikilea...
    - einpoklum 7y ago
      I didn't say the demand was legitimate, but it was still an extradition request...
- multjoy 7y ago
  That was under the auspices of a European Arrest Warrant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Arrest_Warrant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Arrest_Warrant

stephen_g 7y ago

True. Of course, that may not matter. From her behaviour, the judge appears to understand the outcome the hearing is expected to produce, and as Mr. Murray fears in the O.P, it seems like nothing said in court is going to affect that...

mzs 7y ago

Please don't speculate, simply to get to the point of the hearing Assange is having now The US needed to provide: >a prosecutor's affidavit describing the facts of the case, including dates, names, docket numbers and citations, and preferably executed before a judge or magistrate (particularly if extradition is sought from a civil law country) >copies of the statutes the fugitive is said to have violated, the statutes governing the penalties that may be imposed upon conviction, and the applicable statute of limitations … >… certified copies of the arrest warrant (preferably signed by the court or a magistrate) and of the indictment or complaint >… evidence of the identity of the individual sought (fingerprints/photographs) and of the evidence upon which the charges are based and of the fugitive's guilt in the form of witness affidavits (preferably avoiding the use grand jury transcripts and, particularly in the case of extradition from a common law country, the use of hearsay) https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/98-958.html#_Toc463609382 https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/98-958.html#_Toc46360...

carterehsmith 7y ago
Wait, what is this "everycrsreport.com" -- is that some kind of authority on.. things? Should we trust it? If so, why?
- mzs 7y ago
  It's a search engine for Congressional Research Service Reports and is easier to copy/paste from into HN than the PDFs themselves: https://crsreports.congress.gov/search/#/0?termsToSearch=98-958&orderBy=Relevance&navIds=4294967262 https://crsreports.congress.gov/search/#/0?termsToSearch=98-...
  - carterehsmith 7y ago
    Thanks... though I think it would be great to refer to original sources, rather than some random site that adds... what value? They do add Google Analytics/tracking, I would not consider that "added value".
    - 7y ago