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It's interesting to consider that people who look for a feeling of one-ness with the world can find it through Mathematics or through religion, even though they

It's interesting to consider that people who look for a feeling of one-ness with the world can find it through Mathematics or through religion, even though they are considered almost diametrically opposite approaches to understand the Universe.

protonfish 7y ago
That's not how I see it. Mathematics is not science, even though science has found practical uses for certain types of math. Pure math does not require observation of the real world for proof, only consistency with itself. As a system of symbols independent of the messy real world I see it closer to mysticism than hard science. I am not saying this as a bad thing, only something we need to be honest about.
- Koshkin 7y ago
  Well, one can think of, say, natural numbers as a mystical "system of symbols" but I find them extremely close to the real world when I count change in my pocket.
  - protonfish 7y ago
    But that's what they they were designed for. The first "numbers" were arguably clay tokens meant to represent goods in storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_numeral_systems#Clay_token https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_numeral_sys... Numbers were and are primarily used for accounting purposes. If they didn't accurately represent the change in your pocket then the system would be improved until it did. There's nothing magical about it.
    - Koshkin 7y ago
      Yet, there are people who see magic in numbers, as others tend to do in other mathematical constructs.
      - protonfish 7y ago
        Exactly my point - that viewing magic in math is more akin to religion than science.
  - adrianmonk 7y ago
    The way I see it, there are three separate endeavors here: understanding the world, understanding various forms of math, and understanding which forms of math are applicable to the real world and why. Some math may not have any application that we know of in the real world. Maybe there is one but nobody has yet realized what it is. Or maybe the real world will change in the future so that there is one. Or maybe there won't be one and that's OK. Incidentally, I think understanding how to correctly apply math to a real world problem is a separate skill from understanding the math itself. And just because you're a good at one doesn't mean you're good at the other. It's relatively easy and common to make the error of understanding a situation in a very shallow or inaccurate manner, then applying math which itself is completely valid, then coming to a wrong conclusion that you're very confident of because of how solid the math is. In "P, and P implies Q, therefore Q", it's easy to get so excited about the beauty and wonder of P implies Q that you spend too little time understanding whether P is actually the case. If you've got a hammer, and you're in love with that hammer, you can become blind to whether something actually is a nail.
ohgodhelpplease 7y ago
In the words of Galileo, "Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe."

protonfish 7y ago

That's not how I see it. Mathematics is not science, even though science has found practical uses for certain types of math. Pure math does not require observation of the real world for proof, only consistency with itself. As a system of symbols independent of the messy real world I see it closer to mysticism than hard science. I am not saying this as a bad thing, only something we need to be honest about.

Koshkin 7y ago
Well, one can think of, say, natural numbers as a mystical "system of symbols" but I find them extremely close to the real world when I count change in my pocket.
- protonfish 7y ago
  But that's what they they were designed for. The first "numbers" were arguably clay tokens meant to represent goods in storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_numeral_systems#Clay_token https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_numeral_sys... Numbers were and are primarily used for accounting purposes. If they didn't accurately represent the change in your pocket then the system would be improved until it did. There's nothing magical about it.
  - Koshkin 7y ago
    Yet, there are people who see magic in numbers, as others tend to do in other mathematical constructs.
    - protonfish 7y ago
      Exactly my point - that viewing magic in math is more akin to religion than science.
- adrianmonk 7y ago
  The way I see it, there are three separate endeavors here: understanding the world, understanding various forms of math, and understanding which forms of math are applicable to the real world and why. Some math may not have any application that we know of in the real world. Maybe there is one but nobody has yet realized what it is. Or maybe the real world will change in the future so that there is one. Or maybe there won't be one and that's OK. Incidentally, I think understanding how to correctly apply math to a real world problem is a separate skill from understanding the math itself. And just because you're a good at one doesn't mean you're good at the other. It's relatively easy and common to make the error of understanding a situation in a very shallow or inaccurate manner, then applying math which itself is completely valid, then coming to a wrong conclusion that you're very confident of because of how solid the math is. In "P, and P implies Q, therefore Q", it's easy to get so excited about the beauty and wonder of P implies Q that you spend too little time understanding whether P is actually the case. If you've got a hammer, and you're in love with that hammer, you can become blind to whether something actually is a nail.

ohgodhelpplease 7y ago

In the words of Galileo, "Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe."