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> 'swapping ads with their own' - not true Only by the strictest definition of swap. They block ads and show ads from their own ad network, which they collect

> 'swapping ads with their own' - not true Only by the strictest definition of swap. They block ads and show ads from their own ad network, which they collect revenue on. That the Brave ads don't appear in the same place as the blocked ads doesn't impact the ethics of it.

jshevek 7y ago
In what way is it unethical for a company who is providing me a valuable service to also give me the opportunity to opt-in to seeing ads to support that service? And in what way is it unethical for that same company to provide the service, which I desire, of blocking ads that I've already decided I don't want to see, because the people serving me those ads are violating my privacy? Many people seem fixated on trying to frame this in the most disparaging way possible, which distracts from the reality of what is actually happening here.
sfj 7y ago
That's just half the story, though. They share the revenue with you which you can either keep for yourself or, manually or automatically, tip the sites you visit in the form of a cryptocurrency token.
justsee 7y ago
Very happy to engage in an ethical debate on this one. This line about 'swapping ads with their own' has been an attempt to imply in the reader's mind that Brave was / is nefariously replacing actual ads with their own, which is not true. The truth is Brave blocks all ads by default, and nothing more. Do you believe it's ethical for a user agent to block ads, or that it's unethical and a form of theft? I'm with gorhill of uBlock on this [1]: That said, it's important to note that using a blocker is NOT theft. Don't fall for this creepy idea. The ultimate logical consequence of blocking = theft is the criminalisation of the inalienable right to privacy. Separate to this, Brave has a rewards system users can choose to enable which can show OS-level notifications of advertiser content in a privacy-respecting way. The ethics around this are clear: * if a user wishes to opt-out of an insecure, fraudulent and privacy-harming ad-tech ecosystem for content on the open web that is their right * if that same user wants to opt-in to a privacy-respecting alternative ad model which operates in a very different way, that's also their right Attempting to claim the combination of these optional user choices is 'ad swapping' in a nefarious, unethical sense is simply dishonest. A more accurate phrase considering the individual user choices involved might be 'model swapping'. As a user I deliberately choose to swap the current ad-tech model with a new, innovative model. That model may have to evolve, but from a technical and human perspective appears to be much better than the current status quo. [1] https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock#philosophy https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock#philosophy
- jshevek 7y ago
  Thank you for taking the time to explain this in a careful and thorough manner. You are absolutely correct to say: > Attempting to claim the combination of these optional user choices is 'ad swapping' in a nefarious, unethical sense is simply dishonest. ... (For the benefit of anyone else on mobile who finds HN's quotation style unpleasant, here is the gorhill quote: "That said, it's important to note that using a blocker is NOT theft. Don't fall for this creepy idea. The ultimate logical consequence of blocking = theft is the criminalisation of the inalienable right to privacy. ")
  - Stratoscope 7y ago
    > For the benefit of anyone else on mobile who finds HN's quotation style unpleasant... Code blocks are definitely not HN's quotation style and not recommended for quotes. They are often used for that purpose by mistake. It is an understandable mistake considering the lack of formatting options here. A common quotation style that works on all devices is what I used above, a leading '>' followed by the quoted text enclosed in asterisks, like this (with code formatting here to show the special characters): > *For the benefit...* > *Blank line between paragraphs*
- 6510 7y ago
  "People are taking the piss out of you everyday. They butt into your life, take a cheap shot at you and then disappear. They leer at you from tall buildings and make you feel small. They make flippant comments from buses that imply you're not sexy enough and that all the fun is happening somewhere else. They are on TV making your girlfriend feel inadequate. They have access to the most sophisticated technology the world has ever seen and they bully you with it. They are The Advertisers and they are laughing at you. You, however, are forbidden to touch them. Trademarks, intellectual property rights and copyright law mean advertisers can say what they like wherever they like with total impunity. Fuck that. Any advert in a public space that gives you no choice whether you see it or not is yours. It's yours to take, re-arrange and re-use. You can do whatever you like with it. Asking for permission is like asking to keep a rock someone just threw at your head. You owe the companies nothing. Less than nothing, you especially don't owe them any courtesy. They owe you. They have re-arranged the world to put themselves in front of you. They never asked for your permission, don't even start asking for theirs." - Banksy

jshevek 7y ago

In what way is it unethical for a company who is providing me a valuable service to also give me the opportunity to opt-in to seeing ads to support that service? And in what way is it unethical for that same company to provide the service, which I desire, of blocking ads that I've already decided I don't want to see, because the people serving me those ads are violating my privacy? Many people seem fixated on trying to frame this in the most disparaging way possible, which distracts from the reality of what is actually happening here.

sfj 7y ago

That's just half the story, though. They share the revenue with you which you can either keep for yourself or, manually or automatically, tip the sites you visit in the form of a cryptocurrency token.

justsee 7y ago

Very happy to engage in an ethical debate on this one. This line about 'swapping ads with their own' has been an attempt to imply in the reader's mind that Brave was / is nefariously replacing actual ads with their own, which is not true. The truth is Brave blocks all ads by default, and nothing more. Do you believe it's ethical for a user agent to block ads, or that it's unethical and a form of theft? I'm with gorhill of uBlock on this [1]: That said, it's important to note that using a blocker is NOT theft. Don't fall for this creepy idea. The ultimate logical consequence of blocking = theft is the criminalisation of the inalienable right to privacy. Separate to this, Brave has a rewards system users can choose to enable which can show OS-level notifications of advertiser content in a privacy-respecting way. The ethics around this are clear: * if a user wishes to opt-out of an insecure, fraudulent and privacy-harming ad-tech ecosystem for content on the open web that is their right * if that same user wants to opt-in to a privacy-respecting alternative ad model which operates in a very different way, that's also their right Attempting to claim the combination of these optional user choices is 'ad swapping' in a nefarious, unethical sense is simply dishonest. A more accurate phrase considering the individual user choices involved might be 'model swapping'. As a user I deliberately choose to swap the current ad-tech model with a new, innovative model. That model may have to evolve, but from a technical and human perspective appears to be much better than the current status quo. [1] https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock#philosophy https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock#philosophy

jshevek 7y ago
Thank you for taking the time to explain this in a careful and thorough manner. You are absolutely correct to say: > Attempting to claim the combination of these optional user choices is 'ad swapping' in a nefarious, unethical sense is simply dishonest. ... (For the benefit of anyone else on mobile who finds HN's quotation style unpleasant, here is the gorhill quote: "That said, it's important to note that using a blocker is NOT theft. Don't fall for this creepy idea. The ultimate logical consequence of blocking = theft is the criminalisation of the inalienable right to privacy. ")
- Stratoscope 7y ago
  > For the benefit of anyone else on mobile who finds HN's quotation style unpleasant... Code blocks are definitely not HN's quotation style and not recommended for quotes. They are often used for that purpose by mistake. It is an understandable mistake considering the lack of formatting options here. A common quotation style that works on all devices is what I used above, a leading '>' followed by the quoted text enclosed in asterisks, like this (with code formatting here to show the special characters): > *For the benefit...* > *Blank line between paragraphs*
6510 7y ago
"People are taking the piss out of you everyday. They butt into your life, take a cheap shot at you and then disappear. They leer at you from tall buildings and make you feel small. They make flippant comments from buses that imply you're not sexy enough and that all the fun is happening somewhere else. They are on TV making your girlfriend feel inadequate. They have access to the most sophisticated technology the world has ever seen and they bully you with it. They are The Advertisers and they are laughing at you. You, however, are forbidden to touch them. Trademarks, intellectual property rights and copyright law mean advertisers can say what they like wherever they like with total impunity. Fuck that. Any advert in a public space that gives you no choice whether you see it or not is yours. It's yours to take, re-arrange and re-use. You can do whatever you like with it. Asking for permission is like asking to keep a rock someone just threw at your head. You owe the companies nothing. Less than nothing, you especially don't owe them any courtesy. They owe you. They have re-arranged the world to put themselves in front of you. They never asked for your permission, don't even start asking for theirs." - Banksy