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I think his point is about the default behavior pointing to Cloudflare. Unless the user changes the DNS provider setting, everyone will be on Cloudflare. With

I think his point is about the default behavior pointing to Cloudflare. Unless the user changes the DNS provider setting, everyone will be on Cloudflare. With that said, I think this is pretty over-the-top. Part of the reason Cloudflare is the default (and NextDNS is an option) is because they are abiding by Mozilla's Trusted Recursive Resolver policy: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/DOH-resolver-policy https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/DOH-resolver-policy The only way Cloudflare itself can cause users a privacy issue through the use of its DNS service is by lying to them. They have already agreed not to sell or grant the data to any third party or use it for advertising, etc. The other concern nullc has is that hackers will infiltrate Cloudflare because it will now contain data on all US Firefox users' DNS queries unless those users change default settings. OK. I guess. However, I will say that I trust Cloudflare a whole heckuva lot more than I trust Comcast, Charter, AT&T, Verizon, etc. to be practicing good security. There are also probably more people on the mega ISPs than there are Firefox users, and many DNS queries these days originate from platforms that aren't even PCs (such as home theater streaming sticks) which will still be pinging default DHCP-received DNS providers. If anything, I see this decentralizing DNS request data.

nullc 7y ago
The mozilla policy allows cloudflare to permanently store and exploit per-domain-name but not per user data. So even going by the letter of the policy and considering cloudflare alone there is still a privacy loss. Moreover, the current legal standard in the US is that users have no expectation of privacy for data that third parties have stored about their activity. As a result there is potentially limited to no due process protection for user information in this scheme. Cloudflare could be required to turn the information over via an administrative subpoena and without the oversight of even a court or any ability for the impacted users to learn about or challenge the surveillance. > I will say that I trust Cloudflare a whole heckuva lot more than I trust Comcast, Charter, AT&T, Verizon, etc. to be practicing good security Than any one of them? I could imagine that. Than all? Cloudflare is a much bigger target. > I see this decentralizing DNS request data. Could you elaborate on that? I see this as massively centralizing DNS request data (onto cloudflare) and this change is the most problematic part of the whole thing.
- freeAgent 7y ago
  > Could you elaborate on that? I see this as massively centralizing DNS request data (onto cloudflare) and this change is the most problematic part of the whole thing. 1. Firefox's browser marketshare is around 10%. This moves roughly 10% of DNS requests off ISP DNS providers to Cloudflare. Each of the major ISPs controls more than 10% of the broadband market. 2. It's only impacting Firefox browsers. To get an overall picture of the DNS request landscape and privacy, one has to include every DNS request made by a computing device that doesn't go through a Firefox browser. Even for Firefox users, the vast majority of their DNS requests probably don't come from web browsing in Firefox. 3. Firefox also makes it very easy to switch DNS providers to DHCP default or NextDNS. Of course users can still use custom options as well. Many Firefox users are probably savvy enough to exercise these options. Based on what I've laid out above, I would guess that this change by Firefox might be redirecting a low-single-digits percent (very possibly less than 1%) of DNS request traffic to Cloudflare vs. where it went previously. That sounds like decentralization to me.

nullc 7y ago

The mozilla policy allows cloudflare to permanently store and exploit per-domain-name but not per user data. So even going by the letter of the policy and considering cloudflare alone there is still a privacy loss. Moreover, the current legal standard in the US is that users have no expectation of privacy for data that third parties have stored about their activity. As a result there is potentially limited to no due process protection for user information in this scheme. Cloudflare could be required to turn the information over via an administrative subpoena and without the oversight of even a court or any ability for the impacted users to learn about or challenge the surveillance. > I will say that I trust Cloudflare a whole heckuva lot more than I trust Comcast, Charter, AT&T, Verizon, etc. to be practicing good security Than any one of them? I could imagine that. Than all? Cloudflare is a much bigger target. > I see this decentralizing DNS request data. Could you elaborate on that? I see this as massively centralizing DNS request data (onto cloudflare) and this change is the most problematic part of the whole thing.

freeAgent 7y ago
> Could you elaborate on that? I see this as massively centralizing DNS request data (onto cloudflare) and this change is the most problematic part of the whole thing. 1. Firefox's browser marketshare is around 10%. This moves roughly 10% of DNS requests off ISP DNS providers to Cloudflare. Each of the major ISPs controls more than 10% of the broadband market. 2. It's only impacting Firefox browsers. To get an overall picture of the DNS request landscape and privacy, one has to include every DNS request made by a computing device that doesn't go through a Firefox browser. Even for Firefox users, the vast majority of their DNS requests probably don't come from web browsing in Firefox. 3. Firefox also makes it very easy to switch DNS providers to DHCP default or NextDNS. Of course users can still use custom options as well. Many Firefox users are probably savvy enough to exercise these options. Based on what I've laid out above, I would guess that this change by Firefox might be redirecting a low-single-digits percent (very possibly less than 1%) of DNS request traffic to Cloudflare vs. where it went previously. That sounds like decentralization to me.