3 ms·

> You are no longer concerned with minute adjustments to the wheel, and you no longer have to maintain a constant high priority task of staying centered in the

> You are no longer concerned with minute adjustments to the wheel, and you no longer have to maintain a constant high priority task of staying centered in the lines. Now, instead, you perform higher order functions of route planning, estimating traffic flow, observing other drivers and whether they are paying attention or drifting toward you, etc. Staying centered in the lane should be muscle memory for an experienced driver. The higher order functions you mentioned are all things you should be doing regardless, with or without autopilot. I can perform those tasks just fine while driving a stick shift, most drivers can. The other side of the coin is that reduced engagement in the driving process can lead to lapses in concentration. That's not just my experience, it's the same opinion expressed by F1 drivers tasked with bringing the lead car home in an unchallenging grand prix.

spookthesunset 7y ago
I dunno man. Adaptive cruise control with "stop and go" functionally is pretty fucking nice when you are in traffic. Just because something is "muscle memory" doesn't mean it is zero cost. Adaptive cruise control really makes stop & go a hell of a lot nicer to drive in 'cause you aren't constantly shuffling between two pedals. As others have stated, it makes you quite a bit less irritable when the drive is over. That shit wears you out. Next time you rent a car, get one with adaptive cruise control and give it a try. It is very handy!
kenhwang 7y ago
Adaptive cruise with stop/go and lane centering is a feature offered in many cars now. So it's not like Tesla/autopilot has a unique value proposition there anymore. Mentally, I find auditing the system while it drives way more fun and less exhausting than actually driving on an uneventful highway.
BluePen7 7y ago
> Staying in your lane should be muscle memory for an experienced driver The amount of effort needed for this can vary wildly depending on the vehicle, it’s mechanical condition, and the speed it’s being driven at. Some vehicles are more prone to being bothered by wind, or grooves in the road, or require more constant adjustments to maintain lane position. My tiredness is dependant on the vehicle. I’ve had cars I’m exhausted from driving just after a 1 hour commute, and I’ve had a luxury sedan I could drive basically indefinitely (once did 3000 miles in 3 days, I didn’t mind it at all). I wonder if the person you’re replying to previously drive a much less refined car, and would see most of the same benefits even when driving the Tesla manually. Honestly the second part of their focus, simply being aware of their surroundings, should also be muscle memory for any experienced driver. That’s probably why they find driving so tiring, because they don’t plan ahead enough to keep a peaceful flow, rather than slightly too late scramble to gather information when they have to change lanes or something.
- zaroth 7y ago
  > I wonder if the person you’re replying to previously drive a much less refined car, and would see most of the same benefits even when driving the Tesla manually. Yeah, I’ve driven shit boxes (see my comment about the Toyota Tercel stick shift). But I still much prefer long drives in my Model 3 rather than my wife’s GL450. Before I got the Model 3 I drove an Infiniti G35 for 12 years, which was a perfectly “refined” car IMO. > That’s probably why they find driving so tiring, because... I guess you just have to try it. Again, I’m not saying driving is this exhausting thing that requires white-knuckled concentration. I’m saying that with AP it is just better in every way. You’re totally free to disagree if your personal experience with AP is different, but I think speculating on my driving ineptitude or poor choice of vehicle is kind of pointless / shooting the messenger.
LeifCarrotson 7y ago
I've driven about 250,000 miles in the last 10 years (a lot of trips for work, coupled with a 50-mile commute for all but the last 2). 2 of 3 personal vehicles and 2 of the 5 work trucks were manual transmission. Apparently it takes more than that to be an "experienced driver", because lanekeeping and speed control leave me very fatigued after a 3 hour drive. I became accustomed to eating in at lunch diners and sitting down for dinner halfway home but other co-workers were not fatigued and could go through the drive through and eat in the truck. It's definitely easier than it was, and I don't have to think about the mechanics much at all anymore when backing up a 5th wheel or controlling a truck sliding in the snow, but this human doesn't have a chunk of my brain that can do lane centering automatically. That is not a universal brain function, every human can drive but it takes a lot more energy and concentration for some of us. My stress levels have gotten lower and my life has gotten a lot better since I realized that and cut my commute down to a 2.5 mile trip with ~monthly travel instead...
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  Still, you can have lane control without all the rest of alleged autopilot problems, as well as automatic speed control and emergency braking. The system is supposed to immediately start heading when it detects you're not responding. Keeping hands on wheel is not good enough, an active attention system similar to train ones should be employed and sharper at that. Something as simple as a steering wheel button which is required to press in half second after lighting a signal or automatic emergency system is engaged. Perhaps even in all cars, not just automated, though it's hard to implement safely without automatic steering and lane system.
zaroth 7y ago
I’m not saying that staying in lane is “difficult” in any way. I haven’t been in an accident since I was 18 years old, save for someone who backed into the rear quarter-panel of my car in a parking lot as I drove past them. I also spent several years driving stick, back in high school and for several years after when I drove an old beater Toyota Tercel. Staying centered in a lane requires constant minor adjustments which are not entirely predictable. It’s perfectly easy and totally muscle memory when you keep a distant gaze, as they teach in driver school. Because of this we are taught to take quick glances in your mirrors, and to check blind spots before changing lanes, etc. But you have to maintain focus ahead pretty much constantly. Everything else is secondary because it will cause drifting in your lane while you address it. That same distant gaze—which is taught because it increases peripheral vision—can also, by the way, contribute to “drivers stare” or “blind staring” where your eyes are open and focused on the horizon but your brain isn’t really registering what’s happening around you. I’ll also add that observing other drivers on the road, it is rare to see someone perfectly centered and maintaining that perfect center for mile after mile. They will drift left and right in the lane, sometimes enough to make you wonder what their plan is, or what else they may be doing in there. AutoPilot doesn’t just make driving easier for the driver, it makes driving easier for cars around you because the car moves more predictably. My main point, speaking from experience, is that you actually can be totally engaged in the driving process even without your hand on the wheel. It may sound paradoxical to you just because it’s the only way you’ve ever driven. Between the 1) constant touches that Tesla needs to feel on the wheel, the 2) guidance computer showing your immediate surroundings, upcoming traffic conditions, and route planning, and 3) the ability to spend more time on higher order driver functions... basically without trying to nerd out, it’s more like piloting a spacecraft than driving a car. It’s fun, and engaging, and IMO a lot safer. By no means is it boring. Here’s what I will say — that someone who would drive recklessly by using a phone while driving, they may feel like they can “get away with it” better with AutoPilot, just because the car isn’t swerving in the lane when they take their eyes off the road. And you know what, most of the time they actually are safer making that reckless choice with AP than without it. So the issue is actually incredibly nuanced. Cars today are not built to always prevent drivers from driving recklessly. We do this because driving is a form of freedom, and being subjugated to a machine which is supposed to “enforce perfect driving hygiene” is going to be a very frustrating and at times a buggy and unbearable process. Instead, with or without ADAS, we rely on personal responsibility. This is a terribly flawed and imperfect solution, but until we actually have FSD and humans are totally out of the loop it is IMO the only option. Once true FSD is live, we can regulate a date when manual driving can become illegal.
lostapathy 7y ago
I have two vehicles - one older, and one a newer Honda with lane keeping assist and adaptive cruise control. I can say, without a doubt, I am less fatigued and more alert after even an hour drive in the Honda. I was skeptical before I had it, but I'm sold now. It's not that you "aren't driving" or paying attention, but not having to deal with the most basic aspects of driving makes a surprisingly difference.
rusticpenn 7y ago
I disagree. I recently drove a VW tiguan with lane correction tech and it was really helpful on a long drive, helped me focus on other things as the previous poster said.

spookthesunset 7y ago

I dunno man. Adaptive cruise control with "stop and go" functionally is pretty fucking nice when you are in traffic. Just because something is "muscle memory" doesn't mean it is zero cost. Adaptive cruise control really makes stop & go a hell of a lot nicer to drive in 'cause you aren't constantly shuffling between two pedals. As others have stated, it makes you quite a bit less irritable when the drive is over. That shit wears you out. Next time you rent a car, get one with adaptive cruise control and give it a try. It is very handy!

kenhwang 7y ago

Adaptive cruise with stop/go and lane centering is a feature offered in many cars now. So it's not like Tesla/autopilot has a unique value proposition there anymore. Mentally, I find auditing the system while it drives way more fun and less exhausting than actually driving on an uneventful highway.

BluePen7 7y ago

> Staying in your lane should be muscle memory for an experienced driver The amount of effort needed for this can vary wildly depending on the vehicle, it’s mechanical condition, and the speed it’s being driven at. Some vehicles are more prone to being bothered by wind, or grooves in the road, or require more constant adjustments to maintain lane position. My tiredness is dependant on the vehicle. I’ve had cars I’m exhausted from driving just after a 1 hour commute, and I’ve had a luxury sedan I could drive basically indefinitely (once did 3000 miles in 3 days, I didn’t mind it at all). I wonder if the person you’re replying to previously drive a much less refined car, and would see most of the same benefits even when driving the Tesla manually. Honestly the second part of their focus, simply being aware of their surroundings, should also be muscle memory for any experienced driver. That’s probably why they find driving so tiring, because they don’t plan ahead enough to keep a peaceful flow, rather than slightly too late scramble to gather information when they have to change lanes or something.

zaroth 7y ago
> I wonder if the person you’re replying to previously drive a much less refined car, and would see most of the same benefits even when driving the Tesla manually. Yeah, I’ve driven shit boxes (see my comment about the Toyota Tercel stick shift). But I still much prefer long drives in my Model 3 rather than my wife’s GL450. Before I got the Model 3 I drove an Infiniti G35 for 12 years, which was a perfectly “refined” car IMO. > That’s probably why they find driving so tiring, because... I guess you just have to try it. Again, I’m not saying driving is this exhausting thing that requires white-knuckled concentration. I’m saying that with AP it is just better in every way. You’re totally free to disagree if your personal experience with AP is different, but I think speculating on my driving ineptitude or poor choice of vehicle is kind of pointless / shooting the messenger.

LeifCarrotson 7y ago

I've driven about 250,000 miles in the last 10 years (a lot of trips for work, coupled with a 50-mile commute for all but the last 2). 2 of 3 personal vehicles and 2 of the 5 work trucks were manual transmission. Apparently it takes more than that to be an "experienced driver", because lanekeeping and speed control leave me very fatigued after a 3 hour drive. I became accustomed to eating in at lunch diners and sitting down for dinner halfway home but other co-workers were not fatigued and could go through the drive through and eat in the truck. It's definitely easier than it was, and I don't have to think about the mechanics much at all anymore when backing up a 5th wheel or controlling a truck sliding in the snow, but this human doesn't have a chunk of my brain that can do lane centering automatically. That is not a universal brain function, every human can drive but it takes a lot more energy and concentration for some of us. My stress levels have gotten lower and my life has gotten a lot better since I realized that and cut my commute down to a 2.5 mile trip with ~monthly travel instead...

AstralStorm 7y ago
Still, you can have lane control without all the rest of alleged autopilot problems, as well as automatic speed control and emergency braking. The system is supposed to immediately start heading when it detects you're not responding. Keeping hands on wheel is not good enough, an active attention system similar to train ones should be employed and sharper at that. Something as simple as a steering wheel button which is required to press in half second after lighting a signal or automatic emergency system is engaged. Perhaps even in all cars, not just automated, though it's hard to implement safely without automatic steering and lane system.

zaroth 7y ago

I’m not saying that staying in lane is “difficult” in any way. I haven’t been in an accident since I was 18 years old, save for someone who backed into the rear quarter-panel of my car in a parking lot as I drove past them. I also spent several years driving stick, back in high school and for several years after when I drove an old beater Toyota Tercel. Staying centered in a lane requires constant minor adjustments which are not entirely predictable. It’s perfectly easy and totally muscle memory when you keep a distant gaze, as they teach in driver school. Because of this we are taught to take quick glances in your mirrors, and to check blind spots before changing lanes, etc. But you have to maintain focus ahead pretty much constantly. Everything else is secondary because it will cause drifting in your lane while you address it. That same distant gaze—which is taught because it increases peripheral vision—can also, by the way, contribute to “drivers stare” or “blind staring” where your eyes are open and focused on the horizon but your brain isn’t really registering what’s happening around you. I’ll also add that observing other drivers on the road, it is rare to see someone perfectly centered and maintaining that perfect center for mile after mile. They will drift left and right in the lane, sometimes enough to make you wonder what their plan is, or what else they may be doing in there. AutoPilot doesn’t just make driving easier for the driver, it makes driving easier for cars around you because the car moves more predictably. My main point, speaking from experience, is that you actually can be totally engaged in the driving process even without your hand on the wheel. It may sound paradoxical to you just because it’s the only way you’ve ever driven. Between the 1) constant touches that Tesla needs to feel on the wheel, the 2) guidance computer showing your immediate surroundings, upcoming traffic conditions, and route planning, and 3) the ability to spend more time on higher order driver functions... basically without trying to nerd out, it’s more like piloting a spacecraft than driving a car. It’s fun, and engaging, and IMO a lot safer. By no means is it boring. Here’s what I will say — that someone who would drive recklessly by using a phone while driving, they may feel like they can “get away with it” better with AutoPilot, just because the car isn’t swerving in the lane when they take their eyes off the road. And you know what, most of the time they actually are safer making that reckless choice with AP than without it. So the issue is actually incredibly nuanced. Cars today are not built to always prevent drivers from driving recklessly. We do this because driving is a form of freedom, and being subjugated to a machine which is supposed to “enforce perfect driving hygiene” is going to be a very frustrating and at times a buggy and unbearable process. Instead, with or without ADAS, we rely on personal responsibility. This is a terribly flawed and imperfect solution, but until we actually have FSD and humans are totally out of the loop it is IMO the only option. Once true FSD is live, we can regulate a date when manual driving can become illegal.

lostapathy 7y ago

I have two vehicles - one older, and one a newer Honda with lane keeping assist and adaptive cruise control. I can say, without a doubt, I am less fatigued and more alert after even an hour drive in the Honda. I was skeptical before I had it, but I'm sold now. It's not that you "aren't driving" or paying attention, but not having to deal with the most basic aspects of driving makes a surprisingly difference.

rusticpenn 7y ago

I disagree. I recently drove a VW tiguan with lane correction tech and it was really helpful on a long drive, helped me focus on other things as the previous poster said.