6 ms·

Sorry for channeling the dude here but that is just, like your opinion man. I think many of the critical voices now are coming from the EU. We have data protec

by fefe23 7y ago

Sorry for channeling the dude here but that is just, like your opinion man. I think many of the critical voices now are coming from the EU. We have data protection laws. The ISP can't just sell browsing data. That has been illegal since before we had data protection laws, that is actually legally the same as opening other people's letters and reading them. So ... different threat model over here. I am always using the US-EN Firefox version because frankly why would I use translated software when I can understand and use the original. I hope you can see how it might be of concert to me whether Mozilla decides to give my browsing data to Cloudflare, whom I have about as much reason to trust as GCHQ or the NSA.

kzrdude 7y ago
> I am always using the US-EN Firefox version because frankly why would I use translated software when I can understand and use the original. This is maybe not the topic of discussion, but the argument is that your computer is your tool, and the computer should speak your language and adapt itself to you, and not the other way around. For this reason I like and prefer software that speaks my native language! However, I don't have patience for bad translations, and in those cases I'll avoid the translated apps. Not a problem for Firefox!
- Mirioron 7y ago
  I absolutely loathe software in my native language. I will go out of my way to avoid it, because it makes everything more complicated.
- afiori 7y ago
  From my point of view translated software often just means that googling errors is harder
  - coribuci 7y ago
    It's worse than that. Some words did not exist in the target language (the computers are relatively new compared to the age of the language) so they had to be created. Nothing is more annoying than to search for words which make no sense.
    - kzrdude 7y ago
      Why do you think english is any different? Silly words were created for new concepts in computing (as in other fields) in English too. You just don't notice how silly all the new words are (like bit and byte, and "gigaflop" and so on) because english is a prestige language and that it is a foreign language.
- ric2b 7y ago
  But using my native language makes troubleshooting and following tutorials much harder. Using English is the path of least resistance
_jal 7y ago
No, it is not an opinion. It is technically accurate, but may not be relevant to your particular situation. Firefox is used outside of the EU. Speaking of which... > I am always using the US-EN Firefox version Wait, so you want the US version of Firefox to be tuned to EU legal policy?
- stingraycharles 7y ago
  I want the legal policy to be based on where I use it from, not which language I download. As a .nl citizen I personally hate language localization, set my locale to en_US.UTF-8, and always ensure I download the international versions of my browser. I would expect at the very least the legal policy to be tailored towards where I download it from, but preferably where I use it from.
- coribuci 7y ago
  > > I am always using the US-EN Firefox version > Wait, so you want the US version of Firefox to be tuned to EU legal policy? It is not the US version. It's the US language version - or at least that's how they market it.
bad_user 7y ago
I'm an EU citizen as well. EU ISPs may not sell your data for advertising purposes but they do log your traffic in order to report it to local security agencies. I understand that in the EU we enjoy stronger privacy laws, however trusting your ISP, given they have the ability to link your traffic to your real name and address, is incredibly naive. For protecting privacy we need both laws and technology.
- unionpivo 7y ago
  Unless you always use VPN, they can still do that, even with DOH. And if you use VPN, they can see your traffic. Personally I trust my ISP more than some random VPN provider on the net.
  - bad_user 7y ago
    First of all we are not talking about the trustworthiness of VPNs, that's a separate discussion entirely. And no, I don't trust my ISP more than I trust my VPN, but I understand your mistrust as VPNs are indeed not so private as they are marketed. But imo this is throwing the baby with the bathwater. Go to Germany, download a movie either from the Pirate Bay or see one from one of the many illegal websites streaming content and prepare for a letter (delivered to your home address) with a huge fine and a legal threat within a month. Not that I'm a huge fan of pirating content, even if some cases like Sci-Hub have the moral high grown, but this goes to show just how trustworthy an ISP is, in an EU country with some of the best privacy laws ... and in such cases a VPN is absolutely mandatory. --- DoH hides your DNS queries — if you visit an HTTPS website, the traffic might be protected via HTTPS, but the domain name is clearly seen. Of course, the ISP still sees the IP you're communicating with, but due to SNI and industry practices nowadays of putting websites behind CDNs, IPs don't necessarily reveal the website you're communicating with. DoH also makes it harder for ISPs to block or redirect your access to certain websites. For instance it makes it harder to block Pirate Bay based on the whims of your local government. Now certainly Cloudflare can also be compelled to block websites like Pirate Bay, but the DoH service you're communicating with is customizable, you can pick whatever service you want and just like VPNs, I predict there will be plenty of privacy respecting services to choose from. And DoH is not foolproof, it doesn't solve all of our privacy needs, it's just a piece of the puzzle, but a necessary one.

by fefe23 7y ago

kzrdude 7y ago

> I am always using the US-EN Firefox version because frankly why would I use translated software when I can understand and use the original. This is maybe not the topic of discussion, but the argument is that your computer is your tool, and the computer should speak your language and adapt itself to you, and not the other way around. For this reason I like and prefer software that speaks my native language! However, I don't have patience for bad translations, and in those cases I'll avoid the translated apps. Not a problem for Firefox!

Mirioron 7y ago
I absolutely loathe software in my native language. I will go out of my way to avoid it, because it makes everything more complicated.
afiori 7y ago
From my point of view translated software often just means that googling errors is harder
- coribuci 7y ago
  It's worse than that. Some words did not exist in the target language (the computers are relatively new compared to the age of the language) so they had to be created. Nothing is more annoying than to search for words which make no sense.
  - kzrdude 7y ago
    Why do you think english is any different? Silly words were created for new concepts in computing (as in other fields) in English too. You just don't notice how silly all the new words are (like bit and byte, and "gigaflop" and so on) because english is a prestige language and that it is a foreign language.
ric2b 7y ago
But using my native language makes troubleshooting and following tutorials much harder. Using English is the path of least resistance

_jal 7y ago

No, it is not an opinion. It is technically accurate, but may not be relevant to your particular situation. Firefox is used outside of the EU. Speaking of which... > I am always using the US-EN Firefox version Wait, so you want the US version of Firefox to be tuned to EU legal policy?

stingraycharles 7y ago
I want the legal policy to be based on where I use it from, not which language I download. As a .nl citizen I personally hate language localization, set my locale to en_US.UTF-8, and always ensure I download the international versions of my browser. I would expect at the very least the legal policy to be tailored towards where I download it from, but preferably where I use it from.
coribuci 7y ago
> > I am always using the US-EN Firefox version > Wait, so you want the US version of Firefox to be tuned to EU legal policy? It is not the US version. It's the US language version - or at least that's how they market it.

bad_user 7y ago

I'm an EU citizen as well. EU ISPs may not sell your data for advertising purposes but they do log your traffic in order to report it to local security agencies. I understand that in the EU we enjoy stronger privacy laws, however trusting your ISP, given they have the ability to link your traffic to your real name and address, is incredibly naive. For protecting privacy we need both laws and technology.

unionpivo 7y ago
Unless you always use VPN, they can still do that, even with DOH. And if you use VPN, they can see your traffic. Personally I trust my ISP more than some random VPN provider on the net.
- bad_user 7y ago
  First of all we are not talking about the trustworthiness of VPNs, that's a separate discussion entirely. And no, I don't trust my ISP more than I trust my VPN, but I understand your mistrust as VPNs are indeed not so private as they are marketed. But imo this is throwing the baby with the bathwater. Go to Germany, download a movie either from the Pirate Bay or see one from one of the many illegal websites streaming content and prepare for a letter (delivered to your home address) with a huge fine and a legal threat within a month. Not that I'm a huge fan of pirating content, even if some cases like Sci-Hub have the moral high grown, but this goes to show just how trustworthy an ISP is, in an EU country with some of the best privacy laws ... and in such cases a VPN is absolutely mandatory. --- DoH hides your DNS queries — if you visit an HTTPS website, the traffic might be protected via HTTPS, but the domain name is clearly seen. Of course, the ISP still sees the IP you're communicating with, but due to SNI and industry practices nowadays of putting websites behind CDNs, IPs don't necessarily reveal the website you're communicating with. DoH also makes it harder for ISPs to block or redirect your access to certain websites. For instance it makes it harder to block Pirate Bay based on the whims of your local government. Now certainly Cloudflare can also be compelled to block websites like Pirate Bay, but the DoH service you're communicating with is customizable, you can pick whatever service you want and just like VPNs, I predict there will be plenty of privacy respecting services to choose from. And DoH is not foolproof, it doesn't solve all of our privacy needs, it's just a piece of the puzzle, but a necessary one.