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How does it ruin the game less than people throwing the it? It’s not an earnest competition, which is the point of watching. Allowing steroids (something I am n

How does it ruin the game less than people throwing the it? It’s not an earnest competition, which is the point of watching. Allowing steroids (something I am not in favor of) would ruin the game far less than breaking the premise of the game between the pitcher and batter. Frankly I think it should be a crime to cheat—make the people have something to lose that hurts more than money.

aguyfromnb 7y ago
>Frankly I think it should be a crime to cheat—make the people have something to lose that hurts more than money. Why is the answer to everything "throw them in jail", at a huge cost to taxpayers?
ksdale 7y ago
Maybe I'm just cynical, but I've always just assumed that everyone in pro sports is cheating in basically every way they think they can get away with. I never had a problem with Lance Armstrong cheating because I assumed everyone else near the top of the pack was also cheating. If everyone cheats, it is absolutely still an earnest competition. Lots of other guys probably took just as many steroids as Barry Bonds did and didn't hit anywhere near as many home runs. I also think that there need to be rules that are enforced, because there's no game without rules, but the rules are always inherently arbitrary, and I've never felt the urge to heap moral blame on the cheaters in addition to whatever punishment they get for breaking the rules... I guess I sort of unconsciously took the position that as long as no one is getting like, physically injured, bending the rules as far as they'll go (and breaking them sometimes) is just part of the game, and penalties are penalties. It's hard for me to see much of a distinction between taking strategic fouls and violating the rules in other ways, weighing the likelihood of getting caught against the potential gain. Despite all of this, I don't cheat when I play sports nor would I teach my kids to cheat, but when millions of dollars are on the line (maybe because there are millions of dollars on the line), it doesn't bother me that anyone would try to gain any possible advantage.
throwaway5752 7y ago
They both ruin the game, we agree. I just think one is much worse, and object to the comparison and framing. They exist on a spectrum, like doctoring the ball (and the varying degrees of doing that), corking bats, the existing practice of stealing signs by baserunners off 2nd base... Sibling comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22416698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22416698 said it much better than me.
lozaning 7y ago
I have zero interest in having any of my tax dollars pay to lock someone up because they cheated at baseball.
- ksdale 7y ago
  Exactly, I commented above about how the cheating doesn't bother me that much, and I didn't say this because I didn't want to sound flippant, but sports are so not important enough to warrant government involvement.
- monadic2 7y ago
  Not have I, but prisons are a separate issue. I don’t think fines (or asking individuals to step down) are proportional to the level that this will ultimately destroy the sport at the national level. We already throw people in jail for public urination; why not for urinating on our national pastime?
  - lozaning 7y ago
    I dont, and I cant stress this enough, give a single fuck about baseball or it status as our national pastime. Now look, I'm not anti baseball, I'm not here to yuck your yum or say something shouldn't exist because I don't value or appreciate it. But professional baseball not existing anymore sure seems like a problem solely for the people who care about baseball to figure out, not the federal government.
    - monadic2 7y ago
      > But professional baseball not existing anymore sure seems like a problem solely for the people who care about baseball to figure out, not the federal government. And yet, we still arrest for public urination.
- jessaustin 7y ago
  I feel the same way about so-called "insider trading". The full effect is not to prevent the C-suite from stealing from investors, which they do all the time, but rather to punish lower-level defectors from such schemes.
wwarner 7y ago
Ok, I agree, cheating is lame. But a game in which a someone won by cheating is still competitive, while a game that is lost intentionally is just corruption to take money from fans. I guess I don't see the big deal about sign stealing. I mean, in some sports, maybe stock car racing or something like that, this kind of thing would be totally encouraged. Squeaky clean compared to doping and what not.
- mbreese 7y ago
  Cheating to lose and cheating to win are two different things, with very different motivations. However, cheating to win still takes something away from the game. But fundamentally, any sport is based on the principle of a level playing field... that everyone is playing by the same rules. This isn't a case where they stretched the rules, or went right up to the line -- they gained an undeniable advantage using tools that the other teams didn't have. When the batter know the pitch that's coming, you take the most competitive aspect of baseball away.
- Uhhrrr 7y ago
  You might really like this book - racing has a culture of doing everything possible to push the limits set by the rules and the rule enforcement system. There is plenty of rule bending and mechanical engineering wonkery: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1310615.The_Unfair_Advantage https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1310615.The_Unfair_Advan... For my money, baseball teams should pursue simple encryption schemes where the sign thrown has to be decoded by the pitcher in his head, using as additional parameters the inning, batter, and a special private key agreed upon by the pitcher and catcher before each game.
- jaywalk 7y ago
  Sign stealing itself is not against the rules, and has been a part of baseball since forever. It's something that can't really be prevented, like when you've got a runner off 2nd base and he can look right at the catcher when he's giving the signs. It's using electronics to steal signs that is against the rules. It's because electronics basically allow you to "perfectly" steal signs, and one of the biggest things in baseball is that the batter doesn't know what the pitcher is about to throw.

aguyfromnb 7y ago

>Frankly I think it should be a crime to cheat—make the people have something to lose that hurts more than money. Why is the answer to everything "throw them in jail", at a huge cost to taxpayers?

ksdale 7y ago

Maybe I'm just cynical, but I've always just assumed that everyone in pro sports is cheating in basically every way they think they can get away with. I never had a problem with Lance Armstrong cheating because I assumed everyone else near the top of the pack was also cheating. If everyone cheats, it is absolutely still an earnest competition. Lots of other guys probably took just as many steroids as Barry Bonds did and didn't hit anywhere near as many home runs. I also think that there need to be rules that are enforced, because there's no game without rules, but the rules are always inherently arbitrary, and I've never felt the urge to heap moral blame on the cheaters in addition to whatever punishment they get for breaking the rules... I guess I sort of unconsciously took the position that as long as no one is getting like, physically injured, bending the rules as far as they'll go (and breaking them sometimes) is just part of the game, and penalties are penalties. It's hard for me to see much of a distinction between taking strategic fouls and violating the rules in other ways, weighing the likelihood of getting caught against the potential gain. Despite all of this, I don't cheat when I play sports nor would I teach my kids to cheat, but when millions of dollars are on the line (maybe because there are millions of dollars on the line), it doesn't bother me that anyone would try to gain any possible advantage.

throwaway5752 7y ago

They both ruin the game, we agree. I just think one is much worse, and object to the comparison and framing. They exist on a spectrum, like doctoring the ball (and the varying degrees of doing that), corking bats, the existing practice of stealing signs by baserunners off 2nd base... Sibling comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22416698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22416698 said it much better than me.

lozaning 7y ago

I have zero interest in having any of my tax dollars pay to lock someone up because they cheated at baseball.

ksdale 7y ago
Exactly, I commented above about how the cheating doesn't bother me that much, and I didn't say this because I didn't want to sound flippant, but sports are so not important enough to warrant government involvement.
monadic2 7y ago
Not have I, but prisons are a separate issue. I don’t think fines (or asking individuals to step down) are proportional to the level that this will ultimately destroy the sport at the national level. We already throw people in jail for public urination; why not for urinating on our national pastime?
- lozaning 7y ago
  I dont, and I cant stress this enough, give a single fuck about baseball or it status as our national pastime. Now look, I'm not anti baseball, I'm not here to yuck your yum or say something shouldn't exist because I don't value or appreciate it. But professional baseball not existing anymore sure seems like a problem solely for the people who care about baseball to figure out, not the federal government.
  - monadic2 7y ago
    > But professional baseball not existing anymore sure seems like a problem solely for the people who care about baseball to figure out, not the federal government. And yet, we still arrest for public urination.
jessaustin 7y ago
I feel the same way about so-called "insider trading". The full effect is not to prevent the C-suite from stealing from investors, which they do all the time, but rather to punish lower-level defectors from such schemes.

wwarner 7y ago

Ok, I agree, cheating is lame. But a game in which a someone won by cheating is still competitive, while a game that is lost intentionally is just corruption to take money from fans. I guess I don't see the big deal about sign stealing. I mean, in some sports, maybe stock car racing or something like that, this kind of thing would be totally encouraged. Squeaky clean compared to doping and what not.

mbreese 7y ago
Cheating to lose and cheating to win are two different things, with very different motivations. However, cheating to win still takes something away from the game. But fundamentally, any sport is based on the principle of a level playing field... that everyone is playing by the same rules. This isn't a case where they stretched the rules, or went right up to the line -- they gained an undeniable advantage using tools that the other teams didn't have. When the batter know the pitch that's coming, you take the most competitive aspect of baseball away.
Uhhrrr 7y ago
You might really like this book - racing has a culture of doing everything possible to push the limits set by the rules and the rule enforcement system. There is plenty of rule bending and mechanical engineering wonkery: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1310615.The_Unfair_Advantage https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1310615.The_Unfair_Advan... For my money, baseball teams should pursue simple encryption schemes where the sign thrown has to be decoded by the pitcher in his head, using as additional parameters the inning, batter, and a special private key agreed upon by the pitcher and catcher before each game.
jaywalk 7y ago
Sign stealing itself is not against the rules, and has been a part of baseball since forever. It's something that can't really be prevented, like when you've got a runner off 2nd base and he can look right at the catcher when he's giving the signs. It's using electronics to steal signs that is against the rules. It's because electronics basically allow you to "perfectly" steal signs, and one of the biggest things in baseball is that the batter doesn't know what the pitcher is about to throw.