6 ms·

I've done everything too, and the only thing that works for me is sleeping pills. I think it's a very unpopular view nowadays (esp. after Why We Sleep), but a s

I've done everything too, and the only thing that works for me is sleeping pills. I think it's a very unpopular view nowadays (esp. after Why We Sleep), but a small dose of a benzodiazepine changes my life completely. I'm in the midst of a full diagnostic course including cerebral scans, a sleep study and blood analysis, but my neurologist told me there's a good chance that nothing actionable will be revealed and that the pill will remain the best treatment for the rest of my life. I just wanted to say to you: (1) I feel you, it sucks to feel that you're underperforming b/c your clock is messed up, and what further sucks more is that people, especially the internet, will tell you you're doing something wrong, when you're actually a disciplined guy that has tried everything. (2) Get pro help if you can. Seeing my GP and my neurologist is the first time I've been assured that there's a good chance that this is something that's entirely out of my control, and that _actually feels good_. (3) "If the mountain will not come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain" - if you can't fix it just roll with it, that's what I've done at times. I've told a few of my bosses I'm a night owl, and they've fully respected it and given great freedom over my schedule. You've got plenty of options with your skillset... If you wanted to f* off to the beach and code as a freelancer late at night I'm guessing you could also go do that!

funklute 7y ago
Re. Why We Sleep, do be aware it's received some criticism: https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/
fluuuhi 7y ago
I have thought about Benzos but to be honest, all the stories of addiction and old people becoming hazi/stupid (temporarily) frightens me. I try to sleep through weed (indica). I'm not to happy about it but that works more or less.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- gyrgtyn 7y ago
  from that why we sleep podcast, weed sleep is pretty bad sleep. the withdrawals (not being able to sleep) are pretty bad too. not that i don't use it too. they said cbd might be better, but i haven't bothered.
  - DaiPlusPlus 7y ago
    Do you experience weed hangovers?
    - gyrgtyn 7y ago
      probably, in some much less perceptible way than an alcohol one
    - fluuuhi 7y ago
      At least i don't. The only thing i do notice is, that the first initial 5-10 minutes in the morning are more slow. But i don't know if thats how it should be when you wake up :D
  - fluuuhi 7y ago
    If i do not smoke, im very very tired starting at thursday sometimes wednesday. When i smoke, i'm sometimes tired but less tired.
Anthony-G 7y ago
I’ve upvoted your comment but I would disagree with saying “your clock is messed up”. The OP’s clock is fine and acting as it it’s ‘programmed’ to. What’s messed up is the way society places a higher value on the circadian rhythms of early-risers over those of night owls. I recall hearing a theory that having individuals with differing circadian rhythms within the same social group provided an evolutionary advantage as not all members of the group would be asleep – and consequently vulnerable to external dangers – at the same time.
- wahern 7y ago
  Group selection of any kind isn't an empirically supported evolutionary mechanism. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection, especially the Criticism section.
- Relys 7y ago
  Yes, that theory is actually talked about in the book "Why We Sleep" which is mentioned in the comment you are responding too. "Why We Sleep" and "The Body Keeps the Score" are two of the most helpful books I've ever read (and both found by reading HN book suggestions).
  - Anthony-G 7y ago
    It was Why We Sleep, alright. I had started the book last year but only read the first couple of chapters. I must return to it and finish it. Thanks for the other suggestion.
  - mr_woozy 7y ago
    seconded "The Body Keeps the Score"
- logfromblammo 7y ago
  If we define larks as those whose circadian cycle leads the day-night cycle, and owls as those whose circadian cycle lags the day-night cycle, it's easy to hypothesize reasons for lark dominance in the civic schedule. Hypothetically, say local sunrise is 6 AM, and sunset 6 PM, a lark rises at 5 AM and retires at 9 PM, and an owl rises at 7 AM and retires at 11 PM. If the lark wishes to be immediately productive on waking, they might generate noise, vibration, or odors in the owl's sleeping area, or may simply resent the owl for continuing to sleep while the lark has started working, and thus may wake the owl intentionally. If they have a task that requires cooperation, they could either wait 2 hours for the owl to wake, or go rouse them immediately. At that point, the owl has had 6 hours of sleep, and could probably function on that amount for that day. The owl, on the other hand, can work cooperative tasks immediately on waking, as the lark is already awake, and has no reason to ever awaken the lark prior to the natural conclusion of their sleep cycle. The converse act to the lark waking the owl 2 hours early is the owl keeping the lark up 2 hours late, after which the lark will likely just wake later. Each has a 2 hour sleep deficit, but the owl would have been re-clocked by daylight all day, and thus it would be more difficult for them to retire early after being awakened early (unless the weather was gloomy and overcast). They would also desire to awaken 2 hours later than usual the next morning. But there the lark is again, waking the owl up early again. The lark can cause the owl to be chronically sleep deprived, and the owl cannot effectively retaliate. So the owl can, at best, create rules that prohibit larks from disturbing others' sleep before "a reasonable hour". Commuting, artificial lighting, time zones, and daylight savings have all combined to make that "reasonable hour" less reasonable. Daylight savings is a particularly execrable lark tradition. While the owl is sleeping, the lark changes all the clocks, and then wakes up the owl, waving the clock in their face, so the owl does not murder the lark immediately. And then the larks only relent when the evidence of the sunrise would reveal the ruse. Only the larks have any real incentive to redefine civil time to get the owls out of bed earlier. So when someone says, "your body-clock is messed up," the best response is, "your civil time is messed up," and then roll over for a few more zees.
pknight 7y ago
Have you tried Time Restricted Eating(TRE) and limiting food intake to daylight hours? Did you notice any changes from that? As someone who was fortunate to fix a self-created sleeping disorder where I managed to completely f up my circadian rhythms, I wish I had known about TRE years ago. As far as I know it's not (yet) part of the usual list of sleep hygiene/CBT advice, but for me at least it's been the most comprehensive change I've made to my lifestyle that has benefited my rhythms and sleep quality.
aegis4244 7y ago
Has your GP checked your electrolytes ? I had insomnia for 30 years. Couldn't find any fix, and I tried everything but prescribed drugs. (Addiction issues in my family.) Fixed my insomnia on accident. Tried the 4HB diet. The supplements advice did it for me. Magnesium, calcium, and potassium. Overnight fix. Turns out, the culprit was my poor diet. Now, I only have trouble sleeping if I try to sleep less than 12 hours after waking. Best of luck.
- arcturus17 7y ago
  No, but I will inquire about it, thanks for the tip. I have taken magnesium supplements and multivitamins before (I do quite a bit of exercise), and many dietary permutations. I do notice my insomnia becomes worse on a caloric deficit so it might be accentuated by nutrition, but I doubt it's the only cause.
- snazz 7y ago
  Even if you eat healthy, magnesium is a good way to help you fall asleep.
toomanybeersies 7y ago
I've taken the opposite approach to you, I guess. I take 10-15 mg dexamphetamine every morning, first thing when my alarm goes off. I've never particularly had a problem going to sleep once I'm in bed though, and have just struggled rolling out of bed within a reasonable timeframe (apparently a very normal symptom of ADHD, which I'm prescribed the dex for), causing me to stay up late to try and get things done, causing my sleep cycle to be pushed back even further. At one point during university, when I had nothing I needed to be awake and on time for, I was doing 20 hours up, then 10 hours in bed. Now instead of taking 1+ hours to get out of bed and get going, it takes me 20 minutes. My brain just needs a bit of a jumpstart in the morning. I can't recommend enough getting professional help for chronic issues like poor sleep patterns, if you're in a country where it's affordable. The worst that can happen is they say there's nothing they can do, on the other hand, it might be that it might be as simple as medication.

funklute 7y ago

Re. Why We Sleep, do be aware it's received some criticism: https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/

fluuuhi 7y ago

I have thought about Benzos but to be honest, all the stories of addiction and old people becoming hazi/stupid (temporarily) frightens me. I try to sleep through weed (indica). I'm not to happy about it but that works more or less.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
gyrgtyn 7y ago
from that why we sleep podcast, weed sleep is pretty bad sleep. the withdrawals (not being able to sleep) are pretty bad too. not that i don't use it too. they said cbd might be better, but i haven't bothered.
- DaiPlusPlus 7y ago
  Do you experience weed hangovers?
  - gyrgtyn 7y ago
    probably, in some much less perceptible way than an alcohol one
  - fluuuhi 7y ago
    At least i don't. The only thing i do notice is, that the first initial 5-10 minutes in the morning are more slow. But i don't know if thats how it should be when you wake up :D
- fluuuhi 7y ago
  If i do not smoke, im very very tired starting at thursday sometimes wednesday. When i smoke, i'm sometimes tired but less tired.

Anthony-G 7y ago

I’ve upvoted your comment but I would disagree with saying “your clock is messed up”. The OP’s clock is fine and acting as it it’s ‘programmed’ to. What’s messed up is the way society places a higher value on the circadian rhythms of early-risers over those of night owls. I recall hearing a theory that having individuals with differing circadian rhythms within the same social group provided an evolutionary advantage as not all members of the group would be asleep – and consequently vulnerable to external dangers – at the same time.

wahern 7y ago
Group selection of any kind isn't an empirically supported evolutionary mechanism. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection, especially the Criticism section.
Relys 7y ago
Yes, that theory is actually talked about in the book "Why We Sleep" which is mentioned in the comment you are responding too. "Why We Sleep" and "The Body Keeps the Score" are two of the most helpful books I've ever read (and both found by reading HN book suggestions).
- Anthony-G 7y ago
  It was Why We Sleep, alright. I had started the book last year but only read the first couple of chapters. I must return to it and finish it. Thanks for the other suggestion.
- mr_woozy 7y ago
  seconded "The Body Keeps the Score"
logfromblammo 7y ago
If we define larks as those whose circadian cycle leads the day-night cycle, and owls as those whose circadian cycle lags the day-night cycle, it's easy to hypothesize reasons for lark dominance in the civic schedule. Hypothetically, say local sunrise is 6 AM, and sunset 6 PM, a lark rises at 5 AM and retires at 9 PM, and an owl rises at 7 AM and retires at 11 PM. If the lark wishes to be immediately productive on waking, they might generate noise, vibration, or odors in the owl's sleeping area, or may simply resent the owl for continuing to sleep while the lark has started working, and thus may wake the owl intentionally. If they have a task that requires cooperation, they could either wait 2 hours for the owl to wake, or go rouse them immediately. At that point, the owl has had 6 hours of sleep, and could probably function on that amount for that day. The owl, on the other hand, can work cooperative tasks immediately on waking, as the lark is already awake, and has no reason to ever awaken the lark prior to the natural conclusion of their sleep cycle. The converse act to the lark waking the owl 2 hours early is the owl keeping the lark up 2 hours late, after which the lark will likely just wake later. Each has a 2 hour sleep deficit, but the owl would have been re-clocked by daylight all day, and thus it would be more difficult for them to retire early after being awakened early (unless the weather was gloomy and overcast). They would also desire to awaken 2 hours later than usual the next morning. But there the lark is again, waking the owl up early again. The lark can cause the owl to be chronically sleep deprived, and the owl cannot effectively retaliate. So the owl can, at best, create rules that prohibit larks from disturbing others' sleep before "a reasonable hour". Commuting, artificial lighting, time zones, and daylight savings have all combined to make that "reasonable hour" less reasonable. Daylight savings is a particularly execrable lark tradition. While the owl is sleeping, the lark changes all the clocks, and then wakes up the owl, waving the clock in their face, so the owl does not murder the lark immediately. And then the larks only relent when the evidence of the sunrise would reveal the ruse. Only the larks have any real incentive to redefine civil time to get the owls out of bed earlier. So when someone says, "your body-clock is messed up," the best response is, "your civil time is messed up," and then roll over for a few more zees.

pknight 7y ago

Have you tried Time Restricted Eating(TRE) and limiting food intake to daylight hours? Did you notice any changes from that? As someone who was fortunate to fix a self-created sleeping disorder where I managed to completely f up my circadian rhythms, I wish I had known about TRE years ago. As far as I know it's not (yet) part of the usual list of sleep hygiene/CBT advice, but for me at least it's been the most comprehensive change I've made to my lifestyle that has benefited my rhythms and sleep quality.

aegis4244 7y ago

Has your GP checked your electrolytes ? I had insomnia for 30 years. Couldn't find any fix, and I tried everything but prescribed drugs. (Addiction issues in my family.) Fixed my insomnia on accident. Tried the 4HB diet. The supplements advice did it for me. Magnesium, calcium, and potassium. Overnight fix. Turns out, the culprit was my poor diet. Now, I only have trouble sleeping if I try to sleep less than 12 hours after waking. Best of luck.

arcturus17 7y ago
No, but I will inquire about it, thanks for the tip. I have taken magnesium supplements and multivitamins before (I do quite a bit of exercise), and many dietary permutations. I do notice my insomnia becomes worse on a caloric deficit so it might be accentuated by nutrition, but I doubt it's the only cause.
snazz 7y ago
Even if you eat healthy, magnesium is a good way to help you fall asleep.

toomanybeersies 7y ago

I've taken the opposite approach to you, I guess. I take 10-15 mg dexamphetamine every morning, first thing when my alarm goes off. I've never particularly had a problem going to sleep once I'm in bed though, and have just struggled rolling out of bed within a reasonable timeframe (apparently a very normal symptom of ADHD, which I'm prescribed the dex for), causing me to stay up late to try and get things done, causing my sleep cycle to be pushed back even further. At one point during university, when I had nothing I needed to be awake and on time for, I was doing 20 hours up, then 10 hours in bed. Now instead of taking 1+ hours to get out of bed and get going, it takes me 20 minutes. My brain just needs a bit of a jumpstart in the morning. I can't recommend enough getting professional help for chronic issues like poor sleep patterns, if you're in a country where it's affordable. The worst that can happen is they say there's nothing they can do, on the other hand, it might be that it might be as simple as medication.