5 ms·

It’s because they’re so expensive. Luckily though, behringer recently announced a bunch of amazing modules for very cheap (which is basically their MO, and why

by blhack 7y ago

It’s because they’re so expensive. Luckily though, behringer recently announced a bunch of amazing modules for very cheap (which is basically their MO, and why they are going to end up eating most of the industry)

rch 7y ago
For what it's worth, Behringer's penchant for cloning bespoke hardware that is still available from the creators is generating some negative sentiment* which is broadly affecting their reputation. [*] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22253785 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22253785
- AndrewUnmuted 7y ago
  Behringer already has the reputation of selling very inconsistent and unreliable hardware, some of which are truly amazing values, but most are true heaps of garbage. This won’t bode well for Behringer in the professional and prosumer markets perhaps, but guitar center is going to eat their euro rack modules up. They’ll look great on the demo shelf. They’ll replace them regularly as they start exhibiting problems on the demo floor. It’ll work out just fine for them.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    That's not exclusive to Beheringer in the bargain department. Even so-called quality brand has issues when on display in the stores. Nord for instance has a super good reputation but their products are in fact quite fragile. I've seen more than one broken on display model. And that stuff isn't cheap at all. Things I've seen: virtual drawbars breaking on their organ model, keyboard issues (dead notes, inconsistent volume, knobs missing / broken off. Otoh; brands like Yamaha and Korg seem to hold up quite well at in-store displays. Even so, most electronic music gear sold in quantity isn't nearly the quality of stuff aimed at the touring musician, and for the price it really couldn't be.
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  Behringer are anti-Veblens, which annoys people who believe that technology should be an expensive and exclusive wealth signal. In reality cloning - if not outright theft of designs and ideas - has been rife in the synthesizer industry since the earliest days. Some Eurorack modules are more or less literal clones of "famous" designs. The only difference is the graphics. So cloning is not exclusively a Behringer issue. Generally, most of the big name synthesizer companies are lagging far behind the Eurorack market for innovation. Behringer are taking advantage of this by filling that niche. Given that they also produce original products - like the Wing and the X32 mixers - I expect they'll produce some original synth designs when they've exhausted the clone market. But synth players are not particularly adventurous, and nostalgia sells, so the clone market is where most of the money is for now.
  - squeaky-clean 7y ago
    > Some Eurorack modules are more or less literal clones of "famous" designs. The only difference is the graphics. So cloning is not exclusively a Behringer issue. Typically clones are made for vintage and hard to find gear, which Behringer (and many others) have done for years without issue. The specific recent problem with Behringer and why it's angering many members of the synth community is Behringer is actively cloning and undercutting products being made right now. In the link above about the TD-3, the "DevilFish" mod is a mod Robin Whittle does for the out-of-production Roland TB-303. Behringer cloned the TB-303 to make their own unit, the TD-3. Not many people are upset about this. They then contacted Robin Whittle, who created and sells kits for the DevilFish mod, and after being unable to come to an agreement with him, simply used his mod in their synthesizer. This is legal because there are no patents on the mod.... Kind of a dick move though. Purely speculation, but they feel like the kind of company that would clone a Mutable Instruments module and conveniently ignore the GPL portion of the license when it suits them to. They also hype product announcements in a way that seems like they're trying to poach customers. They didn't announce their Model D clone until just after Moog put up pre-orders for their re-issue. Then Behringer took over 2 years from announcement to sale. They've done similar things with Roland announcements. Releasing a "We're working on something very similar!" image on Facebook the same day as a sale announcement for a new product, and then never releasing the Behringer item. And Lastly, Uli Behringer is a bad member of the community. He constantly has posts deleted by GearSlutz moderators for having false information. He attempted to sue several members of Dave Smith Music for talking negatively about him on forums outside of their day-jobs. > I expect they'll produce some original synth designs when they've exhausted the clone market They already have some lovely original designs like the Neutron or Deep Mind by the way.
- vibrolax 7y ago
  Cloning exists across every segment of the music making industry: guitars, amps, studio gear, mics, etc. Making a sustainable living as a creator of boutique instruments or equipment is a rare feat. My own take is that cheap clones allow people to enter a hobby/passion at an affordable price. My experience is that those who find the hobby worthy of continued investment often progress to become buyers of boutique/artisan gear.
- blhack 7y ago
  Imagine a world where the first inventor of a violin was the only person ever allowed to create a violin. We would not have the musical landscape we have right now. Behringer's proposition is basically: this stuff doesn't need to be luxury goods. Not that luxury goods shouldn't exist, and when you sell your platinum album, go ahead and buy stuff with a moog or a korg logo. But that said, normal people should have access to this stuff as well. In fact, to bring this back to a conversation more directly relevant to HN: the market of people willing to pay $500 for a synth is MUCH larger than the market of people willing to pay $5000 for a synth, AND the people who are willing to pay $500 for a synth could be converted into people willing to pay $1000 for a synth. I think there is a really important lesson there about pricing. One that I think that current, bespoke instrument manufacturers are going to have to learn. Full disclosure: I own behringer synthesizers. My current SaaS product is breaking conventional advise about pricing in the same way that Behringer does (not yet launched).
- squarefoot 7y ago
  Behringer made cheap knockoffs of famous products a while ago, and most apparently sucked badly. I've heard more recent accounts of newer products being of decent quality however, and a couple teardowns seem to confirm this. They still mostly clone stuff by others though. The problem to me is also due to the very high price the original stuff is sold at. Technology has progressed to a point an electronic instrument or effect can be built at a fraction of what would be the price 30 years ago, still mainstream producers sell at absurd prices. As an example, I can build with 15 euros in an evening a fantastic sounding germanium transistor fuzz face clone with mosfet input stage and LDR compressor, place it in a box and make a small profit by selling it at €40. If adding a fancy box and famous name will raise its price tag to €150 or more, notwithstanding the differences between costs of non mass parts purchases and production, I'd say the famous producer is asking for its products to be cloned.
recursinging 7y ago
Eurorack modules are so expensive because they are mostly niche products made by one man shows (like Émilie Gillet). The exotic takes on synthesis and user interfaces are exactly what makes them worth every penny to me. Behringer is using their vertical integration to bring classic and well known synthesis concepts (and UIs) down to attractive price points. I don't think they are in conflict with most of the Eurorack folks (except perhaps Doepfer). I'd be surprised if they start cloning Make Noise modules.
- blhack 7y ago
  I think that Behringer's entry into the modular space actually HELPS these bespoke manufacturers and is going to help them sell more modules (if behringer doesn't just outright buy them, like they've already done with outfits like TC electronic). I'm not going to drop $5k on a starter modular setup. But I will drop $500 on one! And then $250 on Maths; something I would have never even thought about buying if I didn't have the rest of the modular to support it.
  - elihu 7y ago
    I can agree with that. I think the manufacturers who would be threatened by Behringer are the ones who are making oscillators, filters, voltage controlled amplifiers, envelope generators, and other basic modules that you kind of have to have just to have a usable setup. Whereas anything that's a substantial departure from what you'd find in any mainstream subtractive synth may actually become more popular, because the hobby is more accessible.
  - scarecrowbob 7y ago
    FWIW, I think that the real issue is Bg eating things like moog mothers... I very much love mine (and could have bought either), but I can see why folks would rather spend 300 than 600. Your point is generally good; I got a maths and a couple of other things immediately after the mother.
pmoriarty 7y ago
Another more affordable option is to build your own modules. What's involved could be as simple as merely assembling a purchased kit (which should already save you money over a pre-assembled module) all the way to designing, prototyping, and etching your own PCB's, designing and building the enclosure, finding and ordering all the parts, soldering them all together, testing, etc. The DIY modular synth community is pretty active. The "Music Tech DIY" forum on Muffwiggler is a good place to start. https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=17 https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=17
rhizome 7y ago
Behringer has not taken over any industry in which they have copied the successful because their quality is not high enough. It's high enough for their revenue expectations, but not high enough for the industry.

by blhack 7y ago

rch 7y ago

For what it's worth, Behringer's penchant for cloning bespoke hardware that is still available from the creators is generating some negative sentiment* which is broadly affecting their reputation. [*] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22253785 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22253785

AndrewUnmuted 7y ago
Behringer already has the reputation of selling very inconsistent and unreliable hardware, some of which are truly amazing values, but most are true heaps of garbage. This won’t bode well for Behringer in the professional and prosumer markets perhaps, but guitar center is going to eat their euro rack modules up. They’ll look great on the demo shelf. They’ll replace them regularly as they start exhibiting problems on the demo floor. It’ll work out just fine for them.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  That's not exclusive to Beheringer in the bargain department. Even so-called quality brand has issues when on display in the stores. Nord for instance has a super good reputation but their products are in fact quite fragile. I've seen more than one broken on display model. And that stuff isn't cheap at all. Things I've seen: virtual drawbars breaking on their organ model, keyboard issues (dead notes, inconsistent volume, knobs missing / broken off. Otoh; brands like Yamaha and Korg seem to hold up quite well at in-store displays. Even so, most electronic music gear sold in quantity isn't nearly the quality of stuff aimed at the touring musician, and for the price it really couldn't be.
TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
Behringer are anti-Veblens, which annoys people who believe that technology should be an expensive and exclusive wealth signal. In reality cloning - if not outright theft of designs and ideas - has been rife in the synthesizer industry since the earliest days. Some Eurorack modules are more or less literal clones of "famous" designs. The only difference is the graphics. So cloning is not exclusively a Behringer issue. Generally, most of the big name synthesizer companies are lagging far behind the Eurorack market for innovation. Behringer are taking advantage of this by filling that niche. Given that they also produce original products - like the Wing and the X32 mixers - I expect they'll produce some original synth designs when they've exhausted the clone market. But synth players are not particularly adventurous, and nostalgia sells, so the clone market is where most of the money is for now.
- squeaky-clean 7y ago
  > Some Eurorack modules are more or less literal clones of "famous" designs. The only difference is the graphics. So cloning is not exclusively a Behringer issue. Typically clones are made for vintage and hard to find gear, which Behringer (and many others) have done for years without issue. The specific recent problem with Behringer and why it's angering many members of the synth community is Behringer is actively cloning and undercutting products being made right now. In the link above about the TD-3, the "DevilFish" mod is a mod Robin Whittle does for the out-of-production Roland TB-303. Behringer cloned the TB-303 to make their own unit, the TD-3. Not many people are upset about this. They then contacted Robin Whittle, who created and sells kits for the DevilFish mod, and after being unable to come to an agreement with him, simply used his mod in their synthesizer. This is legal because there are no patents on the mod.... Kind of a dick move though. Purely speculation, but they feel like the kind of company that would clone a Mutable Instruments module and conveniently ignore the GPL portion of the license when it suits them to. They also hype product announcements in a way that seems like they're trying to poach customers. They didn't announce their Model D clone until just after Moog put up pre-orders for their re-issue. Then Behringer took over 2 years from announcement to sale. They've done similar things with Roland announcements. Releasing a "We're working on something very similar!" image on Facebook the same day as a sale announcement for a new product, and then never releasing the Behringer item. And Lastly, Uli Behringer is a bad member of the community. He constantly has posts deleted by GearSlutz moderators for having false information. He attempted to sue several members of Dave Smith Music for talking negatively about him on forums outside of their day-jobs. > I expect they'll produce some original synth designs when they've exhausted the clone market They already have some lovely original designs like the Neutron or Deep Mind by the way.
vibrolax 7y ago
Cloning exists across every segment of the music making industry: guitars, amps, studio gear, mics, etc. Making a sustainable living as a creator of boutique instruments or equipment is a rare feat. My own take is that cheap clones allow people to enter a hobby/passion at an affordable price. My experience is that those who find the hobby worthy of continued investment often progress to become buyers of boutique/artisan gear.
blhack 7y ago
Imagine a world where the first inventor of a violin was the only person ever allowed to create a violin. We would not have the musical landscape we have right now. Behringer's proposition is basically: this stuff doesn't need to be luxury goods. Not that luxury goods shouldn't exist, and when you sell your platinum album, go ahead and buy stuff with a moog or a korg logo. But that said, normal people should have access to this stuff as well. In fact, to bring this back to a conversation more directly relevant to HN: the market of people willing to pay $500 for a synth is MUCH larger than the market of people willing to pay $5000 for a synth, AND the people who are willing to pay $500 for a synth could be converted into people willing to pay $1000 for a synth. I think there is a really important lesson there about pricing. One that I think that current, bespoke instrument manufacturers are going to have to learn. Full disclosure: I own behringer synthesizers. My current SaaS product is breaking conventional advise about pricing in the same way that Behringer does (not yet launched).
squarefoot 7y ago
Behringer made cheap knockoffs of famous products a while ago, and most apparently sucked badly. I've heard more recent accounts of newer products being of decent quality however, and a couple teardowns seem to confirm this. They still mostly clone stuff by others though. The problem to me is also due to the very high price the original stuff is sold at. Technology has progressed to a point an electronic instrument or effect can be built at a fraction of what would be the price 30 years ago, still mainstream producers sell at absurd prices. As an example, I can build with 15 euros in an evening a fantastic sounding germanium transistor fuzz face clone with mosfet input stage and LDR compressor, place it in a box and make a small profit by selling it at €40. If adding a fancy box and famous name will raise its price tag to €150 or more, notwithstanding the differences between costs of non mass parts purchases and production, I'd say the famous producer is asking for its products to be cloned.

recursinging 7y ago

Eurorack modules are so expensive because they are mostly niche products made by one man shows (like Émilie Gillet). The exotic takes on synthesis and user interfaces are exactly what makes them worth every penny to me. Behringer is using their vertical integration to bring classic and well known synthesis concepts (and UIs) down to attractive price points. I don't think they are in conflict with most of the Eurorack folks (except perhaps Doepfer). I'd be surprised if they start cloning Make Noise modules.

blhack 7y ago
I think that Behringer's entry into the modular space actually HELPS these bespoke manufacturers and is going to help them sell more modules (if behringer doesn't just outright buy them, like they've already done with outfits like TC electronic). I'm not going to drop $5k on a starter modular setup. But I will drop $500 on one! And then $250 on Maths; something I would have never even thought about buying if I didn't have the rest of the modular to support it.
- elihu 7y ago
  I can agree with that. I think the manufacturers who would be threatened by Behringer are the ones who are making oscillators, filters, voltage controlled amplifiers, envelope generators, and other basic modules that you kind of have to have just to have a usable setup. Whereas anything that's a substantial departure from what you'd find in any mainstream subtractive synth may actually become more popular, because the hobby is more accessible.
- scarecrowbob 7y ago
  FWIW, I think that the real issue is Bg eating things like moog mothers... I very much love mine (and could have bought either), but I can see why folks would rather spend 300 than 600. Your point is generally good; I got a maths and a couple of other things immediately after the mother.

pmoriarty 7y ago

Another more affordable option is to build your own modules. What's involved could be as simple as merely assembling a purchased kit (which should already save you money over a pre-assembled module) all the way to designing, prototyping, and etching your own PCB's, designing and building the enclosure, finding and ordering all the parts, soldering them all together, testing, etc. The DIY modular synth community is pretty active. The "Music Tech DIY" forum on Muffwiggler is a good place to start. https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=17 https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=17

rhizome 7y ago

Behringer has not taken over any industry in which they have copied the successful because their quality is not high enough. It's high enough for their revenue expectations, but not high enough for the industry.