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I can't see how this can be successfully enforced without a massive education campaign and actual enforcement by authorities, including moving the so-called "we

I can't see how this can be successfully enforced without a massive education campaign and actual enforcement by authorities, including moving the so-called "wet markets" (which are outdoor butchers that are very important to the food supply chain in many areas of China) into modern indoor facilities for improved food safety. Older people in China (the so-called lost generation) are set in their ways: remember that in traditional Chinese medicine, the medicinal value of an animal is directly proportional to its rarity. This of course creates perverse incentives to kill the last living members of endangered animals already under threat from poachers. China has plenty of laws including a constitution that defends practicing free speech and religion, but in reality laws mean nothing if there's no enforcement.

bitwize 7y ago
Traditional Chinese medicine was on its way out, and China embracing science-based medicine -- until Chairman Mao introduced "barefoot doctors" as a cheap substitute for real doctors when the Chinese health care infrastructure found itself woefully understaffed.
- exhilaration 7y ago
  Related article: As it races to treat patients infected with the new coronavirus, the Chinese government is seeing potential in a cocktail of antiviral drugs. It is also recommending the Peaceful Palace Bovine Pill, a traditional Chinese medicine made with the gallstone of cattle, buffalo horn, jasmine and pearl. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/05/world/asia/coronavirus-traditional-chinese-medicine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/05/world/asia/coronavirus-tr...
  - dmix 7y ago
    > The use of these ancient Chinese remedies dovetails with a push by Xi Jinping, China’s top leader, to harness them as a source of national pride. He has said that officials should place as much importance on traditional Chinese medicines as they do on Western medicines. This is actually scary to read, handing out placebos in the middle of an epidemic. China is going to continue being ground zero for these sorts of things (that and the developmentally-fringe parts of Africa). A couple of years ago (2013-2016) China had an H7N9 avian flu outbreak that infected 1,223 and had a 30-40% mortality rate (COVID-19 is around 2.1%), which didn't get much Western news coverage: >> It has been established that many of the human cases of H7N9 appear to have a link to live bird markets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus_subtype_H7N9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus_subtype_H7N9 Even the classic 1918 flu that killed 50 million originated in China: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/1/140123-spanish-flu-1918-china-origins-pandemic-science-health/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/1/140123-spanis...
mc32 7y ago
This very important. Both the PRC and USSR constitutions, on paper, arguably provide better freer basic law than that of the US but in practice it’s just words on paper. However, also in practice the faction in power gets to capriciously enforce what it wants selectively, usually to solidify standing. So mr Xi and mr Stalin (née Jughashvili) get to purge all want-to-be usurpers.
- edgefield0 7y ago
  Not for long. The American Constitution is being eroded every day. We're becoming (arguably have become) a full fledged banana republic.
  - novaleaf 7y ago
    oh come on. At least give some anicdote to back your claim.
    - cjslep 7y ago
      At least consider the illiberal nature [0] of the way the current administration is rooting out the corruption, compared to following established norms to lay bare the corruption for all to see. For example, consider if during the current administration's first two years they welcomed oversight from the Republican House and Senate (a co-equal branch) to investigate and clear the President of the same things the Mueller investigation was charged with -- and then that branch (not the executive) investigated the origins of the Mueller investigation, to root out corruption. That kind of co-equal power play would have been a lot stronger than the reality of a bully executive branch trying to wade into doing everything with, what seems to be, little regard for what all future presidents can now do due to precedent, so why didn't that kind of cross-power oversight happen with a Republican-controlled executive and Congress? [0] https://cjslep.com/c/blog/illiberalism https://cjslep.com/c/blog/illiberalism
    - Ididntdothis 7y ago
      One thing I find concerning is that the president seems willing to use his pardoning powers for his allies. I guess Clinton did the same with Marc Rich. It certainly doesn’t look good.
FerretFred 7y ago
> massive education campaign and actual enforcement I think if there was ever a place where that could be done, it's China.
saber6 7y ago
> remember that in traditional Chinese medicine, the medicinal value of an animal is directly proportional to its rarity. What a stupid ass belief system.
pozdnyshev 7y ago
>I can't see how this can be successfully enforced without a massive education campaign and actual enforcement by authorities >China has plenty of laws including a constitution that defends practicing free speech and religion, but in reality laws mean nothing if there's no enforcement. Are you suggesting that these practices be allowed under "freedom of religion"? In light of the public health concern, that would be erroneous. Furthermore, China does not have the same problem as the US does with a popular party representing backward, anti-scientific POVs. There is no visiblity for those kind of values outside of the Falun Gong, a fringe reactionary group that spreads conspiracy theories about aliens and organ harvesting. Also your comment about traditional Chinese medicine is extremely orientalist. Do better hacker news.
- cat199 7y ago
  > a popular party representing backward, anti-scientific POVs Fairly certain that china is ruled by the chinese communist party, last I checked.
  - pozdnyshev 7y ago
    Compare the CPC's position on climate change to the oval office's, I'll wait.
    - dang 7y ago
      Please don't use HN for political or ideological flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - pozdnyshev 7y ago
        Do I need to cite my sources? Hardly a flame, more like putting out a flame.
schuke 7y ago
It’ll have to work on the margins. Yes enforcement will be a problem but top off my head I can see people massively reduce consumption for social reasons (like try not to offend your friends, business clients etc). A law by the People’s Congress will override the myriad of local and central regulations that currently are impossible to interpret and enforce, and largely unhelpful to activists. This will help activists and lawyers a lot, too.
stjohnswarts 7y ago
China has the police state to enforce this that's for sure. Whether they will or not remains to be seen.
siruncledrew 7y ago
It’s not just about enforcing but also about convincing the public to abandon harmful practices. Yao Ming, already known as a basketball star, helped a lot with spreading awareness about shark fin soup in China and compelling people to no longer eat it. That’s not to say it will 100% stop a practice from happening, though using the right people as figureheads for a message is still effective at changing behaviors.

bitwize 7y ago

Traditional Chinese medicine was on its way out, and China embracing science-based medicine -- until Chairman Mao introduced "barefoot doctors" as a cheap substitute for real doctors when the Chinese health care infrastructure found itself woefully understaffed.

exhilaration 7y ago
Related article: As it races to treat patients infected with the new coronavirus, the Chinese government is seeing potential in a cocktail of antiviral drugs. It is also recommending the Peaceful Palace Bovine Pill, a traditional Chinese medicine made with the gallstone of cattle, buffalo horn, jasmine and pearl. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/05/world/asia/coronavirus-traditional-chinese-medicine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/05/world/asia/coronavirus-tr...
- dmix 7y ago
  > The use of these ancient Chinese remedies dovetails with a push by Xi Jinping, China’s top leader, to harness them as a source of national pride. He has said that officials should place as much importance on traditional Chinese medicines as they do on Western medicines. This is actually scary to read, handing out placebos in the middle of an epidemic. China is going to continue being ground zero for these sorts of things (that and the developmentally-fringe parts of Africa). A couple of years ago (2013-2016) China had an H7N9 avian flu outbreak that infected 1,223 and had a 30-40% mortality rate (COVID-19 is around 2.1%), which didn't get much Western news coverage: >> It has been established that many of the human cases of H7N9 appear to have a link to live bird markets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus_subtype_H7N9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus_subtype_H7N9 Even the classic 1918 flu that killed 50 million originated in China: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/1/140123-spanish-flu-1918-china-origins-pandemic-science-health/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/1/140123-spanis...

mc32 7y ago

This very important. Both the PRC and USSR constitutions, on paper, arguably provide better freer basic law than that of the US but in practice it’s just words on paper. However, also in practice the faction in power gets to capriciously enforce what it wants selectively, usually to solidify standing. So mr Xi and mr Stalin (née Jughashvili) get to purge all want-to-be usurpers.

edgefield0 7y ago
Not for long. The American Constitution is being eroded every day. We're becoming (arguably have become) a full fledged banana republic.
- novaleaf 7y ago
  oh come on. At least give some anicdote to back your claim.
  - cjslep 7y ago
    At least consider the illiberal nature [0] of the way the current administration is rooting out the corruption, compared to following established norms to lay bare the corruption for all to see. For example, consider if during the current administration's first two years they welcomed oversight from the Republican House and Senate (a co-equal branch) to investigate and clear the President of the same things the Mueller investigation was charged with -- and then that branch (not the executive) investigated the origins of the Mueller investigation, to root out corruption. That kind of co-equal power play would have been a lot stronger than the reality of a bully executive branch trying to wade into doing everything with, what seems to be, little regard for what all future presidents can now do due to precedent, so why didn't that kind of cross-power oversight happen with a Republican-controlled executive and Congress? [0] https://cjslep.com/c/blog/illiberalism https://cjslep.com/c/blog/illiberalism
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    One thing I find concerning is that the president seems willing to use his pardoning powers for his allies. I guess Clinton did the same with Marc Rich. It certainly doesn’t look good.

FerretFred 7y ago

> massive education campaign and actual enforcement I think if there was ever a place where that could be done, it's China.

saber6 7y ago

> remember that in traditional Chinese medicine, the medicinal value of an animal is directly proportional to its rarity. What a stupid ass belief system.

pozdnyshev 7y ago

>I can't see how this can be successfully enforced without a massive education campaign and actual enforcement by authorities >China has plenty of laws including a constitution that defends practicing free speech and religion, but in reality laws mean nothing if there's no enforcement. Are you suggesting that these practices be allowed under "freedom of religion"? In light of the public health concern, that would be erroneous. Furthermore, China does not have the same problem as the US does with a popular party representing backward, anti-scientific POVs. There is no visiblity for those kind of values outside of the Falun Gong, a fringe reactionary group that spreads conspiracy theories about aliens and organ harvesting. Also your comment about traditional Chinese medicine is extremely orientalist. Do better hacker news.

cat199 7y ago
> a popular party representing backward, anti-scientific POVs Fairly certain that china is ruled by the chinese communist party, last I checked.
- pozdnyshev 7y ago
  Compare the CPC's position on climate change to the oval office's, I'll wait.
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't use HN for political or ideological flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - pozdnyshev 7y ago
      Do I need to cite my sources? Hardly a flame, more like putting out a flame.

schuke 7y ago

It’ll have to work on the margins. Yes enforcement will be a problem but top off my head I can see people massively reduce consumption for social reasons (like try not to offend your friends, business clients etc). A law by the People’s Congress will override the myriad of local and central regulations that currently are impossible to interpret and enforce, and largely unhelpful to activists. This will help activists and lawyers a lot, too.

stjohnswarts 7y ago

China has the police state to enforce this that's for sure. Whether they will or not remains to be seen.

siruncledrew 7y ago

It’s not just about enforcing but also about convincing the public to abandon harmful practices. Yao Ming, already known as a basketball star, helped a lot with spreading awareness about shark fin soup in China and compelling people to no longer eat it. That’s not to say it will 100% stop a practice from happening, though using the right people as figureheads for a message is still effective at changing behaviors.