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> Ayahuasca tourism is huge I have two friends (who are not known to one another) who both came back from their South American ayahuasca experience claiming t

> Ayahuasca tourism is huge I have two friends (who are not known to one another) who both came back from their South American ayahuasca experience claiming that the drug opens a portal into another dimension where they spoke with godlike beings. When I suggested that it merely altered their perception and connected them deeply with their own minds as psychedelics do, they insist that the experience of opening the interdimensional portal was literally real and that ayahuasca is not like all those other hallucinogens. Later I learned that this is a common problem. And in this case, it doesn’t look like having a sitter helps, because the ayahuasca shaman is likely to encourage them to interpret their experience in this way. I wouldn’t consider ayahuasca tourism an example of good, productive use of psychedelics.

pmoriarty 7y ago
This is an underappreciated issue. A lot of people don't really understand how potentially transformative a powerful psychedelic experience can be, particularly if it entails a classic mystical experience. A common characteristic of them is that they are experienced as "more real than real", that valuable, even sacred truths and insights are revealed, and often what is revealed seems indubitably true, or at least at a deeper level of truth than something like mere belief. After such experiences some may come to question what they experienced, and may come to doubt it or re-interpret it in a way that they couldn't while under the effect of the psychedelic, but others can't or won't. This may be due to a number of factors. First, few people have a very developed critical faculty. Most are not used to questioning their own perception of the world or their beliefs. When faced with such an overpoweringly true-seeming experience (perhaps the most powerful of their life) their instinct is to take it at face value and believe. Many of them are also seekers, looking to be convinced or converted, or in some fashion already believe something like what the experience reveals, though sometimes true converts are made (like atheists becoming theists, radical switches of political orientation, etc). This can happen with any powerful psychedelic, but there are some special factors to consider for ayahuasca (and other psychedelics, like peyote, which have a long history of indigenous/shamanic use). As far as ayahuasca goes, the people who facilitate ayahuasca experiences and the groups of people who take part in them (as ayahuasca is usually done in groups) often share and reinforce beliefs similar to what you described, both before and after the experience. There are also lots of articles, videos, and podcasts which tell people what to expect. This primes people to have such experiences, then interpret them in the way everyone else seems to, and accept them as true. Talk about travel to other dimensions, the spirit world, entities like "Mother Ayahuasca", super powers, time travel, precognition, communication with the dead, etc are common, and usually discussed quite uncritically, as if none of this could possibly be anything other than absolutely and unquestionably true. There are some skeptical, experienced voices, but they are drowned out by the believers. Now, if the believers are right, then maybe this isn't a problem. But the thing is that there are many incompatible supernatural belief systems that people buy in to through psychedelic use.. from a belief in a world controlled by demons to a belief that everything is love, to Charles Manson and other cult leaders being gods, to more humble and peaceful beliefs, and it's hard to imagine how they can all be true. Fortunately, the belief systems that most users get in to tend to be peaceful, constructive, and caring. But I am concerned that some people will get themselves in to a reality tunnel that's not quite so benign. It has happened. Charles Manson's abuse of LSD was probably the most infamous example of this in recent times, but if we look at the belief systems that psychedelic users adopts as new religions, we only have to take a look at the history of religion through the ages to realize that quite bloodthirsty strife amongst believers is common, and still goes on today. I sincerely hope that such a bloody future is not in the cards for the newly flowering psychedelic faiths. To guard against this and increase the odds of safely navigating the psychdelic realm, it's probably prudent to cultivate a well functioning BS detector, and maybe have someone you respect and trust who you'll listen to if they call you on your own BS if you're somehow unable to, and maybe make you think twice for a second about you being the Second Coming of Jesus or being able to cause earthquakes with your mind.
stevewillows 7y ago
This isn't unlike some christian experiences within extremely charismatic circles. For me, I've had a slew of crazy 'spiritual' experiences that I can't quite reconcile now that I've stepped away from the church. In a sense it can be quite haunting. In my late teens I had a bunch if warts on my hands. It was really gross and I was appropriately self-conscious. The church I was part of had these INSANE / aggressive faith healers or whatever come through once a year. A bunch of crazy stuff would happen each year (e.g. people quitting smoking en masse after smelling an overwhelming stench of cigarettes followed by something resembling fresh baking...) The overall tone was 'spiritual' -- either through anticipation or expectation, I'm not certain. We were sitting around and my buddy suggested I go up re: the warts, but I really didn't want to. He said that he had warts as a kid and his Dad prayed over him for healing. The following day the warts turned black and fell off (gross) -- and that was it. No scarring, etc. So we prayed for healing over these warts and I didn't think much of it. I'd seen this sort of fruitless petition many times, so it wasn't anything out of the ordinary. The following day I was getting out of the shower and noticed that all of the warts had turned white. I washed my hands in the sink and sure enough, the warts all came off. These days I chalk this up to persuasion / placebo -- as if somehow something clicked in my mind to trigger some sort of targeted healing... but it's still extremely hard to reconcile this experience. When you're in this environment for years on end, or even a weekend (church camp), everything is spiritual -- and even normal things like a bag of salad that seems to last longer than expected is made out to be something it isn't. I don't view it as healthy, but regarding your friends' experiences, I can totally understand the experience, emotions, etc that make something like that seem real.
- nkrisc 7y ago
  On the hand, if nothing had happened to the warts you wouldn't be telling this story. How long ago was this, are you certain it was the next day? Or do you just remember it that way? There's lots of things I remember from 20 years ago that I'm not really sure happened the way I remember. In fact, I don't really know how it really happened as the only record I have is my memory. I'm not trying to suggest you're lying or anything, but these kinds of stories get warped in our memories over time and sort of settle on a more significant, but less accurate version. Personally, I think that these things seem real to people because they want to believe it's real, and so they'll latch on to anything that remotely stands out and attach a meaning to it. Over time their memories of the event settle on that idealized version of it.
balfirevic 7y ago
> claiming that the drug opens a portal into another dimension where they spoke with godlike beings I'm curious, did they believe there is a high probability of godlike beings existing in another dimension before they took ayahuasca?
amanaplanacanal 7y ago
So are you against all religion, or just theirs? Coming from somebody who isn’t religious, theirs doesn’t seem any weirder than the religions professed by the majority of people on this world. Maybe you think their beliefs are particularly pernicious for some reason?
- Mediterraneo10 7y ago
  This is not comparable to an individual freely choosing his or her religious beliefs. Rather, the ayahuasca shaman is taking advantage of their vulnerable state under the effects of the psychedelic and pushing them towards the interpretation of the experience that his tradition favours.
sneak 7y ago
This is a well-documented issue with DMT specifically (the active ingredient in ayahuasca), and has been written about extensively. The search term for those looking for more information is “machine elves”. https://non-aliencreatures.fandom.com/wiki/Machine_Elf https://non-aliencreatures.fandom.com/wiki/Machine_Elf I, too, find ayahuasca tourism to not be a very good or productive way of experimenting with psychedelics. The mysticism/religion is not inherently beneficial, and you can experiment a lot closer to home without all of the woo if you like, with much the same results.
- CuriouslyC 7y ago
  The mysticism can be beneficial. It can make people more open, more enthusiastic, and make the experience feel more profound. It's a bit like a placebo. The key is to use mysticism that doesn't impact how they live their lives outside of the experience. Modern witchcraft is a lot like this, spells are basically like stronger versions of new years resolutions or therapy.
jokowueu 7y ago
It's the problem with dmt more so in nndmt. It's the one psych that I feel like shouldn't be legalised because I just know alot of people will beleive in their psychosis

pmoriarty 7y ago

This is an underappreciated issue. A lot of people don't really understand how potentially transformative a powerful psychedelic experience can be, particularly if it entails a classic mystical experience. A common characteristic of them is that they are experienced as "more real than real", that valuable, even sacred truths and insights are revealed, and often what is revealed seems indubitably true, or at least at a deeper level of truth than something like mere belief. After such experiences some may come to question what they experienced, and may come to doubt it or re-interpret it in a way that they couldn't while under the effect of the psychedelic, but others can't or won't. This may be due to a number of factors. First, few people have a very developed critical faculty. Most are not used to questioning their own perception of the world or their beliefs. When faced with such an overpoweringly true-seeming experience (perhaps the most powerful of their life) their instinct is to take it at face value and believe. Many of them are also seekers, looking to be convinced or converted, or in some fashion already believe something like what the experience reveals, though sometimes true converts are made (like atheists becoming theists, radical switches of political orientation, etc). This can happen with any powerful psychedelic, but there are some special factors to consider for ayahuasca (and other psychedelics, like peyote, which have a long history of indigenous/shamanic use). As far as ayahuasca goes, the people who facilitate ayahuasca experiences and the groups of people who take part in them (as ayahuasca is usually done in groups) often share and reinforce beliefs similar to what you described, both before and after the experience. There are also lots of articles, videos, and podcasts which tell people what to expect. This primes people to have such experiences, then interpret them in the way everyone else seems to, and accept them as true. Talk about travel to other dimensions, the spirit world, entities like "Mother Ayahuasca", super powers, time travel, precognition, communication with the dead, etc are common, and usually discussed quite uncritically, as if none of this could possibly be anything other than absolutely and unquestionably true. There are some skeptical, experienced voices, but they are drowned out by the believers. Now, if the believers are right, then maybe this isn't a problem. But the thing is that there are many incompatible supernatural belief systems that people buy in to through psychedelic use.. from a belief in a world controlled by demons to a belief that everything is love, to Charles Manson and other cult leaders being gods, to more humble and peaceful beliefs, and it's hard to imagine how they can all be true. Fortunately, the belief systems that most users get in to tend to be peaceful, constructive, and caring. But I am concerned that some people will get themselves in to a reality tunnel that's not quite so benign. It has happened. Charles Manson's abuse of LSD was probably the most infamous example of this in recent times, but if we look at the belief systems that psychedelic users adopts as new religions, we only have to take a look at the history of religion through the ages to realize that quite bloodthirsty strife amongst believers is common, and still goes on today. I sincerely hope that such a bloody future is not in the cards for the newly flowering psychedelic faiths. To guard against this and increase the odds of safely navigating the psychdelic realm, it's probably prudent to cultivate a well functioning BS detector, and maybe have someone you respect and trust who you'll listen to if they call you on your own BS if you're somehow unable to, and maybe make you think twice for a second about you being the Second Coming of Jesus or being able to cause earthquakes with your mind.

stevewillows 7y ago

This isn't unlike some christian experiences within extremely charismatic circles. For me, I've had a slew of crazy 'spiritual' experiences that I can't quite reconcile now that I've stepped away from the church. In a sense it can be quite haunting. In my late teens I had a bunch if warts on my hands. It was really gross and I was appropriately self-conscious. The church I was part of had these INSANE / aggressive faith healers or whatever come through once a year. A bunch of crazy stuff would happen each year (e.g. people quitting smoking en masse after smelling an overwhelming stench of cigarettes followed by something resembling fresh baking...) The overall tone was 'spiritual' -- either through anticipation or expectation, I'm not certain. We were sitting around and my buddy suggested I go up re: the warts, but I really didn't want to. He said that he had warts as a kid and his Dad prayed over him for healing. The following day the warts turned black and fell off (gross) -- and that was it. No scarring, etc. So we prayed for healing over these warts and I didn't think much of it. I'd seen this sort of fruitless petition many times, so it wasn't anything out of the ordinary. The following day I was getting out of the shower and noticed that all of the warts had turned white. I washed my hands in the sink and sure enough, the warts all came off. These days I chalk this up to persuasion / placebo -- as if somehow something clicked in my mind to trigger some sort of targeted healing... but it's still extremely hard to reconcile this experience. When you're in this environment for years on end, or even a weekend (church camp), everything is spiritual -- and even normal things like a bag of salad that seems to last longer than expected is made out to be something it isn't. I don't view it as healthy, but regarding your friends' experiences, I can totally understand the experience, emotions, etc that make something like that seem real.

nkrisc 7y ago
On the hand, if nothing had happened to the warts you wouldn't be telling this story. How long ago was this, are you certain it was the next day? Or do you just remember it that way? There's lots of things I remember from 20 years ago that I'm not really sure happened the way I remember. In fact, I don't really know how it really happened as the only record I have is my memory. I'm not trying to suggest you're lying or anything, but these kinds of stories get warped in our memories over time and sort of settle on a more significant, but less accurate version. Personally, I think that these things seem real to people because they want to believe it's real, and so they'll latch on to anything that remotely stands out and attach a meaning to it. Over time their memories of the event settle on that idealized version of it.

balfirevic 7y ago

> claiming that the drug opens a portal into another dimension where they spoke with godlike beings I'm curious, did they believe there is a high probability of godlike beings existing in another dimension before they took ayahuasca?

amanaplanacanal 7y ago

So are you against all religion, or just theirs? Coming from somebody who isn’t religious, theirs doesn’t seem any weirder than the religions professed by the majority of people on this world. Maybe you think their beliefs are particularly pernicious for some reason?

Mediterraneo10 7y ago
This is not comparable to an individual freely choosing his or her religious beliefs. Rather, the ayahuasca shaman is taking advantage of their vulnerable state under the effects of the psychedelic and pushing them towards the interpretation of the experience that his tradition favours.

sneak 7y ago

This is a well-documented issue with DMT specifically (the active ingredient in ayahuasca), and has been written about extensively. The search term for those looking for more information is “machine elves”. https://non-aliencreatures.fandom.com/wiki/Machine_Elf https://non-aliencreatures.fandom.com/wiki/Machine_Elf I, too, find ayahuasca tourism to not be a very good or productive way of experimenting with psychedelics. The mysticism/religion is not inherently beneficial, and you can experiment a lot closer to home without all of the woo if you like, with much the same results.

CuriouslyC 7y ago
The mysticism can be beneficial. It can make people more open, more enthusiastic, and make the experience feel more profound. It's a bit like a placebo. The key is to use mysticism that doesn't impact how they live their lives outside of the experience. Modern witchcraft is a lot like this, spells are basically like stronger versions of new years resolutions or therapy.

jokowueu 7y ago

It's the problem with dmt more so in nndmt. It's the one psych that I feel like shouldn't be legalised because I just know alot of people will beleive in their psychosis