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> the Fraser institute is a right-wing think tank. That's very much an ad hominem fallacy, and unless you have specific evidence that they falsified the data i

> the Fraser institute is a right-wing think tank. That's very much an ad hominem fallacy, and unless you have specific evidence that they falsified the data in question, I'm just going to leave it at that (similarly to how you conclude that 'right wing' is enough of a reason to dismiss something). Last I checked, science doesn't care who you voted for. Once we start dismissing research based on the opinions of the researchers, we've essentially implemented thought crime. All research is motivated by prior opinion. We call it a hypothesis. Whether it happens to align with a political ideology doesn't invalidate it. If the research is somehow wrong, then there will be a way to disprove it through science. Using politics to argue against science isn't appropriate.

pbourke 7y ago
> That's very much an ad hominem fallacy No, it would be an ad hominem if I said "the Fraser institute produced it, so you can safely line your bird cage with it". I didn't say that, I just pointed to the institution's well-known bias. > Using politics to argue against science isn't appropriate. Oh yeah, how dare I impugn non-peer reviewed "science" written by two non-PhD's, where 25% of the citations are to other non-peer reviewed reports written by the Fraser Institute and the others are random statscan links. This "science" is just a summary of responses to a questionnaire.
- Nuzzerino 7y ago
  My argument still stands that Canadian health care should not be considered the final word in health care (which is not a very controversial opinion if we're being honest). I'll cite another report by the Wait Time Alliance, but I'll first quote their mission statement so we can rest assured that it won't have any taint of political bias: > Mission Statement: WTA physicians are concerned over delayed access to health care for Canadians. We work collaboratively with our stakeholders to inform, advocate, and provide solutions to achieve timely, appropriate and equitable access to high-quality health care. And now from the 2015 report itself (the most recent one): > "Ontario reports that the maximum amount of time that nine out of 10 patients with complex needs spent to complete their ED visit and be admitted to the hospital was 25.7 hours (June 2015). The maximum amount of time that nine out of 10 patients with minor or uncomplicated conditions stayed in the ED was 4 hours. As outlined in previous WTA reports, many of the factors responsible for the lengthy waits to be admitted to a hospital bed are system-wide failures such as high numbers of ALC patients and a lack of community-based supports." On primary care: > Wait times are reported for each of the five regional primary care networks in the province. The average wait time for an appointment between January and March 2015 was 23 days, ranging from 0 to 72 days. I can see a primary care doctor within 1-2 days here in the US. Even when I was on welfare, the wait times were no more than a few days. So this report seems to be consistent with the one you were complaining about (which by the way was circulated and referenced widely by mainstream media). However, I see no evidence of "political bias" in this one so I hope you can accept that this isn't that controversial. These wait times are clear facts, not opinions. An opinion would be "Canada has the best health care system", which I am arguing against, citing facts. Source: http://www.waittimealliance.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/EN-FINAL-2015-WTA-Report-Card_REV.pdf http://www.waittimealliance.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/EN... No, I do not think the US has the best system either, but pointing to Canada as a target benchmark is a non-starter from the way I see it.
  - pbourke 7y ago
    At the outset you said this: > Before implying that Canada has the final answer to health care You are the only person who's brought this up. I literally said "it's not perfect." Here's what it comes down to. Population-wide health outcomes in Canada are certainly no worse than they are in the US. Arguably by a number of measures they're better. Health outcomes for the most economically-vulnerable segment of the population are much, much better in Canada. Nobody is bankrupted in Canada by medical care. It's the leading cause of bankruptcy in the US. Canada spends much less of its GDP per capita on healthcare than does the US. A large portion of the US is already covered by a patchwork-quilt national healthcare system. Now whether you want to go with the Canadian system, or the UK's system, or the French system or the Swiss system - honestly I don't give a shit. People are dying because they can't afford to deal with the nightmare of a system here.

pbourke 7y ago

> That's very much an ad hominem fallacy No, it would be an ad hominem if I said "the Fraser institute produced it, so you can safely line your bird cage with it". I didn't say that, I just pointed to the institution's well-known bias. > Using politics to argue against science isn't appropriate. Oh yeah, how dare I impugn non-peer reviewed "science" written by two non-PhD's, where 25% of the citations are to other non-peer reviewed reports written by the Fraser Institute and the others are random statscan links. This "science" is just a summary of responses to a questionnaire.

Nuzzerino 7y ago
My argument still stands that Canadian health care should not be considered the final word in health care (which is not a very controversial opinion if we're being honest). I'll cite another report by the Wait Time Alliance, but I'll first quote their mission statement so we can rest assured that it won't have any taint of political bias: > Mission Statement: WTA physicians are concerned over delayed access to health care for Canadians. We work collaboratively with our stakeholders to inform, advocate, and provide solutions to achieve timely, appropriate and equitable access to high-quality health care. And now from the 2015 report itself (the most recent one): > "Ontario reports that the maximum amount of time that nine out of 10 patients with complex needs spent to complete their ED visit and be admitted to the hospital was 25.7 hours (June 2015). The maximum amount of time that nine out of 10 patients with minor or uncomplicated conditions stayed in the ED was 4 hours. As outlined in previous WTA reports, many of the factors responsible for the lengthy waits to be admitted to a hospital bed are system-wide failures such as high numbers of ALC patients and a lack of community-based supports." On primary care: > Wait times are reported for each of the five regional primary care networks in the province. The average wait time for an appointment between January and March 2015 was 23 days, ranging from 0 to 72 days. I can see a primary care doctor within 1-2 days here in the US. Even when I was on welfare, the wait times were no more than a few days. So this report seems to be consistent with the one you were complaining about (which by the way was circulated and referenced widely by mainstream media). However, I see no evidence of "political bias" in this one so I hope you can accept that this isn't that controversial. These wait times are clear facts, not opinions. An opinion would be "Canada has the best health care system", which I am arguing against, citing facts. Source: http://www.waittimealliance.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/EN-FINAL-2015-WTA-Report-Card_REV.pdf http://www.waittimealliance.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/EN... No, I do not think the US has the best system either, but pointing to Canada as a target benchmark is a non-starter from the way I see it.
- pbourke 7y ago
  At the outset you said this: > Before implying that Canada has the final answer to health care You are the only person who's brought this up. I literally said "it's not perfect." Here's what it comes down to. Population-wide health outcomes in Canada are certainly no worse than they are in the US. Arguably by a number of measures they're better. Health outcomes for the most economically-vulnerable segment of the population are much, much better in Canada. Nobody is bankrupted in Canada by medical care. It's the leading cause of bankruptcy in the US. Canada spends much less of its GDP per capita on healthcare than does the US. A large portion of the US is already covered by a patchwork-quilt national healthcare system. Now whether you want to go with the Canadian system, or the UK's system, or the French system or the Swiss system - honestly I don't give a shit. People are dying because they can't afford to deal with the nightmare of a system here.