9 ms·

This seems a little hypocritical given that the US still doesn't have an adequate SARS-2 testing regime in place, and will almost certainly see the first real r

by themgt 7y ago

This seems a little hypocritical given that the US still doesn't have an adequate SARS-2 testing regime in place, and will almost certainly see the first real rise in cases once a cluster of locally transmitted infections start becoming severely ill/dying, as in Italy/Iran. Calling China blind while we still have our eyes shut. It is possible we'll luck out and escape Wuhan-level consequences, but I'm predicting this piece may age very badly.

stanski 7y ago
It's easy to point fingers from the sidelines. I'm curious how this would've progressed if the virus had originated in the US instead and how much better it would've been handled.
- aianus 7y ago
  These viruses don't originate in China by random chance. Although, ironically, they originate in China because of too little government control over hygiene in wet markets and game meat, not too much authoritarianism.
  - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
    > originate in China because of too little government control over hygiene in wet markets and game meat China isn't unique here, it's also the case for most of Africa and other South East Asian countries.
    - aianus 7y ago
      I didn't say it was unique, just that it's not random that it happened in China and not America.
  - smileysteve 7y ago
    > These viruses don't originate in China by random chance China (country), India and Africa (continent) each separately have > 1/6 of the World Population. So, even if human disease came randomly, it would have a 50% chance of being from these 3 areas. What is surprising is that the high population densities of the Philippines haven't correlated to disease.
    - jethro_tell 7y ago
      The last few have all come from miss handled wild and exotic meats/animals. Countries that have proper handling of meat, and rules around what can be eaten and owned don't have these problems. Granted, there's an underground in every country I'm sure, and if all things were equal with the rules and enforcement, your argument would be much more reasonable.
    - himinlomax 7y ago
      Isn't it interesting that these deadly viruses don't tend to originate from India? Even though they're supposed to have worse sanitation and are poorer, and a similarly large population, both in density and total. The Chinese government promotes "traditional medicine" for nationalistic reasons, and I suspect it's playing a significant role in these zoonotic diseases -- not to mention the extinction of rhinos and whatnot.
- datashow 7y ago
  > I'm curious how this would've progressed if the virus had originated in the US instead and how much better it would've been handled. The federal and local governments in the U.S. do not have the same power as CCP to suppress the "rumor". The eight doctors would not have been reprimanded by the local police for discussing the new virus in private online groups. The Trump administration would not have power to tell the CDC to shut up. The Trump administration would not have power to force the CDC to under-report counts. The states would not cooperate with the federal government to under-report counts.
  - billfruit 7y ago
    You should remember how the AIDS epidemic was handled in the US. A lot of people died before govt even acknowledged it was a problem, there was much lack of coordination between the federal and state/city governments in handling it.
    - bobthepanda 7y ago
      AIDS had the unfortunate coincidence of (at least initially) mostly targeting marginalized groups that governments at the time had no problem with throwing under any bus that came. COVID-19 is spreading to everyone who can catch it across all socioeconomic groups.
  - Ma8ee 7y ago
    And there’s no way in hell a few states with a total population of 50 million would agree to be quarantined. Imagine they’ll tried to stop all flights from O’Hare and Detroit.
    - selimthegrim 7y ago
      50m
      - Ma8ee 7y ago
        50 million people, yes, thank you. Edited.
davidw 7y ago
I'm "curious" how things will work out in the US when people 1) show up to work at, say, McDonalds even if they're not feeling great. 2) wait until the last minute to seek health care because it's expensive And by "curious" I mean "extremely worried". Edit: I'm certainly no expert though; it'd be nice to consider some actual data about how these things spread (is the flu a similar enough model?). Maybe the above points don't really matter that much. I'm still worried in any event. Several relatives-in-law live in one of the affected areas of Italy.
- paultopia 7y ago
  Yes, THIS. We're already seeing the U.S.'s fucked system causing consequences, as in this story of a Miami man getting several thousands of dollars in medical bills for getting tested[1]. We have a system where people are too terrified of their insurers to get tested or get medical care, and too terrified of their employers to stay home from work. It's a recipe for disaster in a pandemic. Incidentally, the fact that authoritarianism and extreme predatory capitalism cause the same kind of fear that impedes things like public health might also suggest that maybe authoritarianism and extreme predatory capitalism are pretty similar, as folks like Elizabeth Anderson[2] and I[3] have argued... [1] https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/health-care/article240476806.html?__twitter_impression=true https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/health-care/article24047680... [2] https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691176512/private-government https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691176512/pr... [3] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08913811.2014.957021 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08913811.2014.9... (paywalled sorry)
- dcolkitt 7y ago
  > 1) show up to work at, say, McDonalds even if they're not feeling great. The US generally has extremely strict guidelines regarding food safety and hygiene. In terms of food safety, America ranks above all but the Nordic countries.[1] I can assure you that American restaurants absolutely will not tolerate a food worker with an active upper respiratory infection. If anything US restaurants are more likely to order a worker to stay home, because unlike Europe they generally don't have to give hourly workers paid sick time. [1] https://foodsecurityindex.eiu.com/Index https://foodsecurityindex.eiu.com/Index
DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
hypocritical indeed: Miami man who flew to China worried he might have COVID-19. He may owe thousands https://www.miamiherald.com/news/health-care/article240476806.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/health-care/article24047680... ~44 million people have no health insurance in the US, and another 38 million have inadequate health insurance. how many of them will skip the doctor and show up for work because they rather not face a surprise bill? I got no doubt at this stage that the US will be hit the hardest from all the developed countries. No amount of testing and prevention mechanism the CDC can come up with, effective mitigation will depend on people seeking treatment and be willing to go to a doctor even without symptoms. I'm pretty convinced that the only reason the US hasn't been hit as hard yet is that they aren't testing on the same scale. In other news on twitter people from Vietnam, Thailand are currently boasting that the number of /their/ infected is tiny compared to South Korea - SK just tests on a massive scale. Not testing and educating people keeps your numbers low but you'll lose in the long run.
- gruez 7y ago
  >hypocritical indeed: Miami man who flew to China worried he might have COVID-19. He may owe thousands Hypocritical? Sounds like a completely orthogonal problem to me. You can have insanely unaffordable healthcare in authoritarian states and liberal democracies. If anything, the US is an outlier considering that healthcare works well in every other liberal democracy.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    It is hypocritical to say "haha China's unprepared for this" when we're clearly also unprepared, yes.
- mcantelon 7y ago
  >I got no doubt at this stage that the US will be hit the hardest from all the developed countries. It's the biggest and most diverse so that's wouldn't be surprising, yes.
  - netsharc 7y ago
clairity 7y ago
yeah, corruption and self-serving behavior among bureaucrats is not unique to authoritarianism and/or communism. with that said, the underlying critique is valid: there is more overt pressure for information-hiding in an authoritarian regime. but boeing, for example, shows that you don't need an authoritarian communist system to want to look good to people who have influence over your livelihood and stature (and thereby suppress bad information).
gruez 7y ago
>This seems a little hypocritical given that the US [...] How is it hypocritical when the article doesn't even mention the US at all? It's possible to be critical of China's authoritarianism AND whatever the US's failures are.
- monocasa 7y ago
  There's an implicit comparison to the alternative.
  - dragontamer 7y ago
    There's more than one alternative. Saying "X doesn't work" never necessarily implies that "Y does work", especially when options Z, A, B, and C still exist.
    - monocasa 7y ago
      Except in the context of propaganda where they are in fact attempting to plant the idea of a dichotomy in people's heads without having to defend one side of it.
- DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
  fwiw reporting is from the Atlantic, which is US based with most of its readers in the US.
  - mcantelon 7y ago
    It's not "hypocritical" to address the fact that authoritarianism is a failure multiplier unless one is an advocate of authoritarianism.
    - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
      the point is the headline and the tone. there is absolutely no empathy in it. you don't need to be for or against authoritarianism to spot that. and I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't frankly.
newfangle 7y ago
How is it hypocritical for the atlantic to state this? Maybe you dont realize it but unlike China, US newspapers are not mouthpieces for the government
- luckylion 7y ago
  Unless, of course, it's about invading Iraq. I find these "this is totally different in the US" threads boring.
dilly_li 7y ago
With the Japan/Korean/Italy/Iran outbreak, I think most people that are outside of China are underestimating the impact of this virus and the effective measures that China has taken. "Calling China blind while we still have our eyes shut."
onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
The degree of blind-ness is what's at stake. See Italy & South Korea. As soon as it becomes obvious there's a problem, the governments start reacting. We can and do criticize the degree our governments respond, and that they're too reactive and not proactive enough. The point is, it's not like in Wuhan, where you have reports of 10s to hundreds of people dying from a mysterious pneumonia, before the government even acknowledges it. It's not like you have the government telling people everything is okay, and to go back to work, and anyone who says anything differently gets welded into their apartment and shut off from the Internet.
- snapetom 7y ago
  Singapore, too. Singapore was one of the first affected and have been completely transparent on their numbers and how things are being handled. The result is a relatively low number of cases given their population density. Meanwhile, nobody trusts China's numbers. Initially it was to to keep the narrative under control, and now it's probably because they've lost control of the situation. Now Iran suddenly says, "oops, we actually have coronavirus and it's pretty bad."
hurrdurr2 7y ago
There is likely already community spread going on especially in places like the SF Bay Area. Many Chinese language forums in the US are reporting people with symptoms that match Covid-19 and testing negative for the common flu, yet are denied CDC RT-PCR testing because they do not meet the stringent criteria set. Add to this the fact that the CDC's initial test is flawed and a new test is still nowhere to be seen. This will go very badly in the US. The average citizen need to start preparing for a pandemic.
- Jabbles 7y ago
  Don't spread rumours. Provide links to one of these "many forums" so that people here can verify your statements.
  - hurrdurr2 7y ago
    http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2508724 http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2508724
  - hurrdurr2 7y ago
    Here's your proof: https://www.davisenterprise.com/local-news/newly-diagnosed-coronavirus-patient-being-treated-at-uc-davis-medical-center/ https://www.davisenterprise.com/local-news/newly-diagnosed-c... Some of you need the facts to bite you on the ass to believe anything.
    - hurrdurr2 7y ago
      durr downboats go back to Reddit morons
- hurrdurr2 7y ago
  https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/f8n1g5/i_am_so_angry_at_the_cdc_who_and_our_hospital_my/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/f8n1g5/i_am_so...

by themgt 7y ago

stanski 7y ago

It's easy to point fingers from the sidelines. I'm curious how this would've progressed if the virus had originated in the US instead and how much better it would've been handled.

aianus 7y ago
These viruses don't originate in China by random chance. Although, ironically, they originate in China because of too little government control over hygiene in wet markets and game meat, not too much authoritarianism.
- DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
  > originate in China because of too little government control over hygiene in wet markets and game meat China isn't unique here, it's also the case for most of Africa and other South East Asian countries.
  - aianus 7y ago
    I didn't say it was unique, just that it's not random that it happened in China and not America.
- smileysteve 7y ago
  > These viruses don't originate in China by random chance China (country), India and Africa (continent) each separately have > 1/6 of the World Population. So, even if human disease came randomly, it would have a 50% chance of being from these 3 areas. What is surprising is that the high population densities of the Philippines haven't correlated to disease.
  - jethro_tell 7y ago
    The last few have all come from miss handled wild and exotic meats/animals. Countries that have proper handling of meat, and rules around what can be eaten and owned don't have these problems. Granted, there's an underground in every country I'm sure, and if all things were equal with the rules and enforcement, your argument would be much more reasonable.
  - himinlomax 7y ago
    Isn't it interesting that these deadly viruses don't tend to originate from India? Even though they're supposed to have worse sanitation and are poorer, and a similarly large population, both in density and total. The Chinese government promotes "traditional medicine" for nationalistic reasons, and I suspect it's playing a significant role in these zoonotic diseases -- not to mention the extinction of rhinos and whatnot.
datashow 7y ago
> I'm curious how this would've progressed if the virus had originated in the US instead and how much better it would've been handled. The federal and local governments in the U.S. do not have the same power as CCP to suppress the "rumor". The eight doctors would not have been reprimanded by the local police for discussing the new virus in private online groups. The Trump administration would not have power to tell the CDC to shut up. The Trump administration would not have power to force the CDC to under-report counts. The states would not cooperate with the federal government to under-report counts.
- billfruit 7y ago
  You should remember how the AIDS epidemic was handled in the US. A lot of people died before govt even acknowledged it was a problem, there was much lack of coordination between the federal and state/city governments in handling it.
  - bobthepanda 7y ago
    AIDS had the unfortunate coincidence of (at least initially) mostly targeting marginalized groups that governments at the time had no problem with throwing under any bus that came. COVID-19 is spreading to everyone who can catch it across all socioeconomic groups.
- Ma8ee 7y ago
  And there’s no way in hell a few states with a total population of 50 million would agree to be quarantined. Imagine they’ll tried to stop all flights from O’Hare and Detroit.
  - selimthegrim 7y ago
    50m
    - Ma8ee 7y ago
      50 million people, yes, thank you. Edited.

davidw 7y ago

I'm "curious" how things will work out in the US when people 1) show up to work at, say, McDonalds even if they're not feeling great. 2) wait until the last minute to seek health care because it's expensive And by "curious" I mean "extremely worried". Edit: I'm certainly no expert though; it'd be nice to consider some actual data about how these things spread (is the flu a similar enough model?). Maybe the above points don't really matter that much. I'm still worried in any event. Several relatives-in-law live in one of the affected areas of Italy.

paultopia 7y ago
Yes, THIS. We're already seeing the U.S.'s fucked system causing consequences, as in this story of a Miami man getting several thousands of dollars in medical bills for getting tested[1]. We have a system where people are too terrified of their insurers to get tested or get medical care, and too terrified of their employers to stay home from work. It's a recipe for disaster in a pandemic. Incidentally, the fact that authoritarianism and extreme predatory capitalism cause the same kind of fear that impedes things like public health might also suggest that maybe authoritarianism and extreme predatory capitalism are pretty similar, as folks like Elizabeth Anderson[2] and I[3] have argued... [1] https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/health-care/article240476806.html?__twitter_impression=true https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/health-care/article24047680... [2] https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691176512/private-government https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691176512/pr... [3] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08913811.2014.957021 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08913811.2014.9... (paywalled sorry)
dcolkitt 7y ago
> 1) show up to work at, say, McDonalds even if they're not feeling great. The US generally has extremely strict guidelines regarding food safety and hygiene. In terms of food safety, America ranks above all but the Nordic countries.[1] I can assure you that American restaurants absolutely will not tolerate a food worker with an active upper respiratory infection. If anything US restaurants are more likely to order a worker to stay home, because unlike Europe they generally don't have to give hourly workers paid sick time. [1] https://foodsecurityindex.eiu.com/Index https://foodsecurityindex.eiu.com/Index

DyslexicAtheist 7y ago

hypocritical indeed: Miami man who flew to China worried he might have COVID-19. He may owe thousands https://www.miamiherald.com/news/health-care/article240476806.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/health-care/article24047680... ~44 million people have no health insurance in the US, and another 38 million have inadequate health insurance. how many of them will skip the doctor and show up for work because they rather not face a surprise bill? I got no doubt at this stage that the US will be hit the hardest from all the developed countries. No amount of testing and prevention mechanism the CDC can come up with, effective mitigation will depend on people seeking treatment and be willing to go to a doctor even without symptoms. I'm pretty convinced that the only reason the US hasn't been hit as hard yet is that they aren't testing on the same scale. In other news on twitter people from Vietnam, Thailand are currently boasting that the number of /their/ infected is tiny compared to South Korea - SK just tests on a massive scale. Not testing and educating people keeps your numbers low but you'll lose in the long run.

gruez 7y ago
>hypocritical indeed: Miami man who flew to China worried he might have COVID-19. He may owe thousands Hypocritical? Sounds like a completely orthogonal problem to me. You can have insanely unaffordable healthcare in authoritarian states and liberal democracies. If anything, the US is an outlier considering that healthcare works well in every other liberal democracy.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  It is hypocritical to say "haha China's unprepared for this" when we're clearly also unprepared, yes.
mcantelon 7y ago
>I got no doubt at this stage that the US will be hit the hardest from all the developed countries. It's the biggest and most diverse so that's wouldn't be surprising, yes.
- netsharc 7y ago

clairity 7y ago

yeah, corruption and self-serving behavior among bureaucrats is not unique to authoritarianism and/or communism. with that said, the underlying critique is valid: there is more overt pressure for information-hiding in an authoritarian regime. but boeing, for example, shows that you don't need an authoritarian communist system to want to look good to people who have influence over your livelihood and stature (and thereby suppress bad information).

gruez 7y ago

>This seems a little hypocritical given that the US [...] How is it hypocritical when the article doesn't even mention the US at all? It's possible to be critical of China's authoritarianism AND whatever the US's failures are.

monocasa 7y ago
There's an implicit comparison to the alternative.
- dragontamer 7y ago
  There's more than one alternative. Saying "X doesn't work" never necessarily implies that "Y does work", especially when options Z, A, B, and C still exist.
  - monocasa 7y ago
    Except in the context of propaganda where they are in fact attempting to plant the idea of a dichotomy in people's heads without having to defend one side of it.
DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
fwiw reporting is from the Atlantic, which is US based with most of its readers in the US.
- mcantelon 7y ago
  It's not "hypocritical" to address the fact that authoritarianism is a failure multiplier unless one is an advocate of authoritarianism.
  - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
    the point is the headline and the tone. there is absolutely no empathy in it. you don't need to be for or against authoritarianism to spot that. and I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't frankly.

newfangle 7y ago

How is it hypocritical for the atlantic to state this? Maybe you dont realize it but unlike China, US newspapers are not mouthpieces for the government

luckylion 7y ago
Unless, of course, it's about invading Iraq. I find these "this is totally different in the US" threads boring.

dilly_li 7y ago

With the Japan/Korean/Italy/Iran outbreak, I think most people that are outside of China are underestimating the impact of this virus and the effective measures that China has taken. "Calling China blind while we still have our eyes shut."

onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago

The degree of blind-ness is what's at stake. See Italy & South Korea. As soon as it becomes obvious there's a problem, the governments start reacting. We can and do criticize the degree our governments respond, and that they're too reactive and not proactive enough. The point is, it's not like in Wuhan, where you have reports of 10s to hundreds of people dying from a mysterious pneumonia, before the government even acknowledges it. It's not like you have the government telling people everything is okay, and to go back to work, and anyone who says anything differently gets welded into their apartment and shut off from the Internet.

snapetom 7y ago
Singapore, too. Singapore was one of the first affected and have been completely transparent on their numbers and how things are being handled. The result is a relatively low number of cases given their population density. Meanwhile, nobody trusts China's numbers. Initially it was to to keep the narrative under control, and now it's probably because they've lost control of the situation. Now Iran suddenly says, "oops, we actually have coronavirus and it's pretty bad."

hurrdurr2 7y ago

There is likely already community spread going on especially in places like the SF Bay Area. Many Chinese language forums in the US are reporting people with symptoms that match Covid-19 and testing negative for the common flu, yet are denied CDC RT-PCR testing because they do not meet the stringent criteria set. Add to this the fact that the CDC's initial test is flawed and a new test is still nowhere to be seen. This will go very badly in the US. The average citizen need to start preparing for a pandemic.

Jabbles 7y ago
Don't spread rumours. Provide links to one of these "many forums" so that people here can verify your statements.
- hurrdurr2 7y ago
  http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2508724 http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2508724
- hurrdurr2 7y ago
  Here's your proof: https://www.davisenterprise.com/local-news/newly-diagnosed-coronavirus-patient-being-treated-at-uc-davis-medical-center/ https://www.davisenterprise.com/local-news/newly-diagnosed-c... Some of you need the facts to bite you on the ass to believe anything.
  - hurrdurr2 7y ago
    durr downboats go back to Reddit morons
hurrdurr2 7y ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/f8n1g5/i_am_so_angry_at_the_cdc_who_and_our_hospital_my/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/f8n1g5/i_am_so...