5 ms·

Unrequested anecdata: my partner got a bad case of the flu (and epiglottis) a couple of years ago, and ended up spending 10 days in hospital - 7 in ICU, 3 on a

Unrequested anecdata: my partner got a bad case of the flu (and epiglottis) a couple of years ago, and ended up spending 10 days in hospital - 7 in ICU, 3 on a normal ward. Total cost: $0. Thanks Canada! (Having said that, if you're visiting Canada you'll need to check your health coverage. Medical coverage is provided to Canadian residents, not just anyone who happens to be in Canada at the time.)

jtbayly 7y ago
She probably already had an epiglottis. At least I hope so.
- goatforce5 7y ago
  Epiglottitis. Oops. And it's a he.
Nuzzerino 7y ago
Before implying that Canada has the final answer to health care, note the other side of the tradeoff from a recent report published Dec 2019: "Fraser Institute has—for over two decades—surveyed specialist physicians across 12 specialties and 10 provinces. This edition of Waiting Your Turn indicates that, overall, waiting times for medically necessary treatment have increased since last year. Specialist physicians surveyed report a median waiting time of 20.9 weeks between referral from a general practitioner and receipt of treatment—longer than the wait of 19.8 weeks reported in 2018." Source: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wait-times-for-health-care-in-canada-2019 https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wa...
- pbourke 7y ago
  1. the Fraser institute is a right-wing think tank. They very much have an axe to grind here. 2. "medically necessary" does not tell you anything about the severity of illness or appropriateness of waiting. There are many medically necessary things for which it's okay to wait some time. In the Canadian system, things are dealt with at the level of urgency appropriate to the severity of the issue. Yes, it's not perfect, but it does result in generally better population-wide health outcomes in Canada than the US.
  - Nuzzerino 7y ago
    > the Fraser institute is a right-wing think tank. That's very much an ad hominem fallacy, and unless you have specific evidence that they falsified the data in question, I'm just going to leave it at that (similarly to how you conclude that 'right wing' is enough of a reason to dismiss something). Last I checked, science doesn't care who you voted for. Once we start dismissing research based on the opinions of the researchers, we've essentially implemented thought crime. All research is motivated by prior opinion. We call it a hypothesis. Whether it happens to align with a political ideology doesn't invalidate it. If the research is somehow wrong, then there will be a way to disprove it through science. Using politics to argue against science isn't appropriate.
    - pbourke 7y ago
      > That's very much an ad hominem fallacy No, it would be an ad hominem if I said "the Fraser institute produced it, so you can safely line your bird cage with it". I didn't say that, I just pointed to the institution's well-known bias. > Using politics to argue against science isn't appropriate. Oh yeah, how dare I impugn non-peer reviewed "science" written by two non-PhD's, where 25% of the citations are to other non-peer reviewed reports written by the Fraser Institute and the others are random statscan links. This "science" is just a summary of responses to a questionnaire.
      - Nuzzerino 7y ago
        My argument still stands that Canadian health care should not be considered the final word in health care (which is not a very controversial opinion if we're being honest). I'll cite another report by the Wait Time Alliance, but I'll first quote their mission statement so we can rest assured that it won't have any taint of political bias: > Mission Statement: WTA physicians are concerned over delayed access to health care for Canadians. We work collaboratively with our stakeholders to inform, advocate, and provide solutions to achieve timely, appropriate and equitable access to high-quality health care. And now from the 2015 report itself (the most recent one): > "Ontario reports that the maximum amount of time that nine out of 10 patients with complex needs spent to complete their ED visit and be admitted to the hospital was 25.7 hours (June 2015). The maximum amount of time that nine out of 10 patients with minor or uncomplicated conditions stayed in the ED was 4 hours. As outlined in previous WTA reports, many of the factors responsible for the lengthy waits to be admitted to a hospital bed are system-wide failures such as high numbers of ALC patients and a lack of community-based supports." On primary care: > Wait times are reported for each of the five regional primary care networks in the province. The average wait time for an appointment between January and March 2015 was 23 days, ranging from 0 to 72 days. I can see a primary care doctor within 1-2 days here in the US. Even when I was on welfare, the wait times were no more than a few days. So this report seems to be consistent with the one you were complaining about (which by the way was circulated and referenced widely by mainstream media). However, I see no evidence of "political bias" in this one so I hope you can accept that this isn't that controversial. These wait times are clear facts, not opinions. An opinion would be "Canada has the best health care system", which I am arguing against, citing facts. Source: http://www.waittimealliance.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/EN-FINAL-2015-WTA-Report-Card_REV.pdf http://www.waittimealliance.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/EN... No, I do not think the US has the best system either, but pointing to Canada as a target benchmark is a non-starter from the way I see it.
- goatforce5 7y ago
  > Before implying that Canada has the final answer to health care I provided details on a single instance of an interaction with the health system. Hence 'ancedata'. I made no claim that every interaction will have the same outcome. > waiting times for medically necessary treatment have increased since last year Do you have the data for wait times for other countries? And, I suppose, wait times of those in the US with and without private insurance?
  - Nuzzerino 7y ago
    > Do you have the data for wait times for other countries? https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/text-alternative-version-2016-cmwf-en-web.pdf https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/text-altern... 29% of Canadians report waiting 4 or more hours the last time they went to the hospital emergency department. Patients who reported waiting 4 or more hours: Country results from highest to lowest Canada, 29% (below average); Sweden, 20%; Norway, 13%; United States, 11%; Commonwealth Fund average, 11%; Australia, 10%; New Zealand, 10%; United Kingdom, 8%; Switzerland, 7%; Netherlands, 4%; Germany, 3%; France, 1%

jtbayly 7y ago

She probably already had an epiglottis. At least I hope so.

goatforce5 7y ago
Epiglottitis. Oops. And it's a he.

Nuzzerino 7y ago

Before implying that Canada has the final answer to health care, note the other side of the tradeoff from a recent report published Dec 2019: "Fraser Institute has—for over two decades—surveyed specialist physicians across 12 specialties and 10 provinces. This edition of Waiting Your Turn indicates that, overall, waiting times for medically necessary treatment have increased since last year. Specialist physicians surveyed report a median waiting time of 20.9 weeks between referral from a general practitioner and receipt of treatment—longer than the wait of 19.8 weeks reported in 2018." Source: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wait-times-for-health-care-in-canada-2019 https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wa...

pbourke 7y ago
1. the Fraser institute is a right-wing think tank. They very much have an axe to grind here. 2. "medically necessary" does not tell you anything about the severity of illness or appropriateness of waiting. There are many medically necessary things for which it's okay to wait some time. In the Canadian system, things are dealt with at the level of urgency appropriate to the severity of the issue. Yes, it's not perfect, but it does result in generally better population-wide health outcomes in Canada than the US.
- Nuzzerino 7y ago
  > the Fraser institute is a right-wing think tank. That's very much an ad hominem fallacy, and unless you have specific evidence that they falsified the data in question, I'm just going to leave it at that (similarly to how you conclude that 'right wing' is enough of a reason to dismiss something). Last I checked, science doesn't care who you voted for. Once we start dismissing research based on the opinions of the researchers, we've essentially implemented thought crime. All research is motivated by prior opinion. We call it a hypothesis. Whether it happens to align with a political ideology doesn't invalidate it. If the research is somehow wrong, then there will be a way to disprove it through science. Using politics to argue against science isn't appropriate.
  - pbourke 7y ago
    > That's very much an ad hominem fallacy No, it would be an ad hominem if I said "the Fraser institute produced it, so you can safely line your bird cage with it". I didn't say that, I just pointed to the institution's well-known bias. > Using politics to argue against science isn't appropriate. Oh yeah, how dare I impugn non-peer reviewed "science" written by two non-PhD's, where 25% of the citations are to other non-peer reviewed reports written by the Fraser Institute and the others are random statscan links. This "science" is just a summary of responses to a questionnaire.
    - Nuzzerino 7y ago
      My argument still stands that Canadian health care should not be considered the final word in health care (which is not a very controversial opinion if we're being honest). I'll cite another report by the Wait Time Alliance, but I'll first quote their mission statement so we can rest assured that it won't have any taint of political bias: > Mission Statement: WTA physicians are concerned over delayed access to health care for Canadians. We work collaboratively with our stakeholders to inform, advocate, and provide solutions to achieve timely, appropriate and equitable access to high-quality health care. And now from the 2015 report itself (the most recent one): > "Ontario reports that the maximum amount of time that nine out of 10 patients with complex needs spent to complete their ED visit and be admitted to the hospital was 25.7 hours (June 2015). The maximum amount of time that nine out of 10 patients with minor or uncomplicated conditions stayed in the ED was 4 hours. As outlined in previous WTA reports, many of the factors responsible for the lengthy waits to be admitted to a hospital bed are system-wide failures such as high numbers of ALC patients and a lack of community-based supports." On primary care: > Wait times are reported for each of the five regional primary care networks in the province. The average wait time for an appointment between January and March 2015 was 23 days, ranging from 0 to 72 days. I can see a primary care doctor within 1-2 days here in the US. Even when I was on welfare, the wait times were no more than a few days. So this report seems to be consistent with the one you were complaining about (which by the way was circulated and referenced widely by mainstream media). However, I see no evidence of "political bias" in this one so I hope you can accept that this isn't that controversial. These wait times are clear facts, not opinions. An opinion would be "Canada has the best health care system", which I am arguing against, citing facts. Source: http://www.waittimealliance.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/EN-FINAL-2015-WTA-Report-Card_REV.pdf http://www.waittimealliance.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/EN... No, I do not think the US has the best system either, but pointing to Canada as a target benchmark is a non-starter from the way I see it.
goatforce5 7y ago
> Before implying that Canada has the final answer to health care I provided details on a single instance of an interaction with the health system. Hence 'ancedata'. I made no claim that every interaction will have the same outcome. > waiting times for medically necessary treatment have increased since last year Do you have the data for wait times for other countries? And, I suppose, wait times of those in the US with and without private insurance?
- Nuzzerino 7y ago
  > Do you have the data for wait times for other countries? https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/text-alternative-version-2016-cmwf-en-web.pdf https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/text-altern... 29% of Canadians report waiting 4 or more hours the last time they went to the hospital emergency department. Patients who reported waiting 4 or more hours: Country results from highest to lowest Canada, 29% (below average); Sweden, 20%; Norway, 13%; United States, 11%; Commonwealth Fund average, 11%; Australia, 10%; New Zealand, 10%; United Kingdom, 8%; Switzerland, 7%; Netherlands, 4%; Germany, 3%; France, 1%