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Dutch went from shortest to tallest in Europe through sexual selection
- pjc50 7y agoConclusion: > "Finally, it is important to emphasize again that our effect sizes are very small"
- noja 7y agotl;dr it's because they are below sea-level
- tsukurimashou 7y agohave my upvote for all the downvotes you got, it made me laugh
- ramblerman 7y agoThis article tackles the 'simple' case of comparing Netherlands to the United States. It doesn't provide a motivation for why this phenomenon only happened in the Netherlands, and not it's neighbors Belgium, Germany or Scandinavia. Those would be much more similar in Social equality, and to some extent even dairy consumption. Edit: I've corrected Holland, to read Netherlands. Apologies for the misnaming.
- econcon 7y ago>for why this phenomenon only happened in the Netherlands, and not it's neighbors Belgium, Germany or Scandinavia. They were already tall no? Were they ever shortest in Europe?
- lebuffon 7y agoIn the paper it says they average 165cm in the past and mentions they were 5..8cm shorter than the average USA citizen.
- classified 7y ago> ... Holland ... The Netherlands. "Holland" is the name of one Province in the Netherlands. Edit: I stand corrected. Actually two provinces.
- Freak_NL 7y agoTwo (Noord-Holland and Zuid-Holland).
- RmDen 7y agotwo not one... Zuid Holland and Noord Holland
- lebuffon 7y agoIs this more common in English or does it happen in other languages also? Example: Q: What you call your country? A: Deutschland Q: Ok, then we'll call it Germany ???
- eesmith 7y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany - "Because of Germany's long history as a non-united region of distinct tribes and states before January 1871, there are many widely varying names of Germany in different languages, perhaps more so than for any other European nation." I like 'Navajo: Béésh Bich’ahii Bikéyah ("Metal Cap-wearer Land"), in reference to Stahlhelm-wearing German soldiers.'
- smcl 7y agoIt happens all the time. Think how many non-Brits refer to the UK as “England” for one example
- mumblemumble 7y agoUsually, at least in Europe, if it's not due to linguistic drift or somesuch, it's because the name is just being translated. For example, the French name for the Netherlands, "Pays-Bas", is just a literal translation of "nether lands". My guess for Germany, which certainly seems the weirdest, is that it's a result of that process happening and the name getting fixed at different times for different languages, combined with the region having a rather complicated political history.
- Freak_NL 7y ago> This article tackles the 'simple' case of comparing Holland to the United States. The dataset focuses on the north-east of the Netherlands (specifically the three provinces of Drenthe, Fryslân, and Groningen). So no, not Holland.
- babesh 7y agoInterpreting sexual selection in this scenario: Dutch were really short because of malnutrition. Perhaps people were trying to make sure their children become taller despite being so short. So they tend to marry the tallest people. This works because of improving nutrition. Perhaps this preference for height became ingrained culturally in the society. This cultural preference becomes ingrained since it can be reproduced by relative isolation (cultural and/or physical). According to the article, tall men were favored whereas average sized women were favored. I wonder why tall women weren't favored versus average sized women? I think these preferences are in general populations but were exaggerated here?
- econcon 7y ago>Dutch were really short because of malnutrition. It's hard to be malnutritioned. Can you link why only Dutch were malnutritioned and not other Europeans? You don't really lose much height through lacking diet. My grandmother was born in poverty and there was famine and drought at her time which killed 3 of her family members, yet she was 6'2 tall.
- dcolkitt 7y agoActually, although Netherlands still often gets cited as the tallest country, it's recently been passed by Bosnia within the youngest cohorts.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_countr...
- mcv 7y agoNot just Bosnia, but most of former Yugoslavia. I had no idea people in the Balkans were so tall.
- Freak_NL 7y agoI wonder if the modern genetic composition of Dutch society impacts that statistic. The massive growth in length is something that happened to the indigenous Dutch population, but the effect won't be present in the Dutch who hail from immigrant stock. Basically, when you are the tallest people in the world, any immigration will tend to shorten the average length.
- levosmetalo 7y ago? I wonder if the modern genetic composition of Dutch society impacts that statistic. The massive growth in length is something that happened to the indigenous Dutch population, but the effect won't be present in the Dutch who hail from immigrant stock. > Basically, when you are the tallest people in the world, any immigration will tend to shorten the average length. I know it's popular in Holland to blame the immigration on everything, including destroying the average height, but since a significant part of the population comes from Balkans, those immigrants are actually "improving" the average.
- econcon 7y ago>significant part of the population comes from Balkans, those immigrants are actually "improving" the average. Aren't Turks the biggest immigrant group?
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- stareatgoats 7y agoI find sexual selection an interesting albeit in popular science literature underrepresented subject. It seems to me that this is the phenomenon that links things like fashion, infatuation and other cultural expressions to our biological evolution, and would explain the relative rapid adaption to various climates that humans obviously have gone though over the last 50 000 years or so, which the traditional evolutionary model (survival of the fittest) will have trouble explaining. I'm sure this is no secret among professional evolution scientists, but this side of evolution has AFAICS not filtered into the general consciousness, for some reason that I have yet to figure out. Maybe because it would give women a more important role than we so far have been willing to accept? Maybe because it would give animals an intuition and intelligence that we traditionally have denied them?
- everdrive 7y ago>Maybe because it would give women a more important role than we so far have been willing to accept? I'm not so sure this isn't broadly accepted. As far as I understand it everyone knows why the peacock has ridiculous (or beautiful, depending on your sensibilities) feathers, or why male birds are beautiful, while female birds are plain.
- econcon 7y agoReminds me of the article I read recently about Pharos of Egypt where royal males were consistently taller than average men and royal females were shorter than average female of the time. I wonder how can tall gene flow in a way that they are only expressed in a specific gender but not other?
- classified 7y agoWhat's it with the obsession with tallness? 300 years ago the Prussian kings were already fans of "the long guys". Outside of basketball, what's the point?
- CydeWeys 7y agoWhat's the obsession with beauty? People can't help what they're attracted to. This is only one of many factors feeding into attractiveness.
- chrischen 7y agoBeauty is always changing, and tallness is merely one topical aspect of it.
- Freak_NL 7y agoOutside of a few drawbacks (flying, sometimes shopping for clothes) it is mostly a benefit. Very useful in crowds. I wouldn't want to be taller than my current 200cm though.
- btrettel 7y agoFrom what I've read taller height is negatively correlated with many health outcomes: https://slate.com/technology/2013/07/height-and-longevity-the-research-is-clear-being-tall-is-hazardous-to-your-health.html https://slate.com/technology/2013/07/height-and-longevity-th...
- chrischen 7y agoIt's a benefit because people think it's a benefit. Kinda like how it's mostly a "benefit" to be a white male in America.
- JoeAltmaier 7y agoTall people get more respect in a conversation. Its a mammal thing?
- growlist 7y agoEugenics: taboo everywhere apart from the dating market, wherein it is celebrated ("what a catch!").
- awb 7y agoThere's a big difference between a top-down and a bottom-up approach to natural selection.
- antisthenes 7y agoSorry, what exactly is top-down and bottom-up in this context?
- econcon 7y agoEugenics was government policy of only letting people with favourable traits procreate. So essential preference is passed from the government (top) to people (bottom) While in dating market, people select partner which ends up changing the population
- growlist 7y agoIt's just an interesting contradiction to me, and I also find it interesting how upset some people seem to get when I point it out. Yet it's unarguable: all else being equal everybody (without issues) should celebrate their friend, relative etc. being with an obviously good catch. And nobody (without issues) intentionally picks the inferior partner, beauty being in the eye of the beholder arguments notwithstanding.
- awb 7y agoFrom Wikipedia: > programs included both positive measures, such as encouraging individuals deemed particularly "fit" to reproduce, and negative measures, such as marriage prohibitions and forced sterilization of people deemed unfit for reproduction. [0] Eugenics refers to an organized and systematic (top-down) approach to manipulating the genetics if a population. Obviously this is not good. Competition and dating are good, I don't think anyone is arguing with that. Confusing the two is like confusing capitalism and communism. Both systems affect the economy but in very different ways for very different reasons. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics
- tenant 7y agoThis seems like a BS answer to me. Tall people in all societies have always had an advantage in terms of status in society and therefore wealth and health. But unless tall people were reproducing at an extraordinary rate relative to small people there just hasn't been enough time elapsed to explain the change on a society wide basis. English people were small by modern standards at the time of Napoleonic wars as evidenced by e.g. the dimensions of the living areas on board the ships of the time. OTOH Irish soldiers in the service of various European countries in the 17th and 18th centuries were noted as being tall for the time. They were mainly of rural stock and would have been relatively well nourished in childhood compared to urban reared children. Whereas today Irish people would be of just average height or maybe even lower than average height by European standards. I suspect that the reason for the Dutch being small then was poverty and that the relative rapid growth in the meantime is due to improved nutrition which has allowed them to grow to their genetic potential.
- rjsw 7y agoEnglish people were small at the time of the Boer wars too, there were problems finding enough suitable soldiers, the food rationing in WWII actually improved diet for the average worker.
- tenant 7y agoYou can still see this phenomenon. People from disadvantaged backgrounds in European cities (for example inner city communities) tend to be smaller than average.
- tenant 7y agoActually the Boer war brings to mind the fact that the Afrikaaner people of South Africa are noted for being of large stature. They are primarily of Dutch origin as well but have long been separated from Holland. So the fact that these two societies would share the attribute of being tall suggests to me that Dutch tallness compared to everyone else is genetic in origin
- FreekNortier 7y ago
- econcon 7y agoI don't understand, why tall people will have more kids? And why they didn't have more kids before the time when they were shortest? What could drive tall people having more kids in last 150 year when they went from shortest to tallest? Did anything big happen in last 150 year?
- akvadrako 7y agoIt's basically just fashion. Tall men were preferred in the marriage market.
- econcon 7y agoThinking about it more. I think tall men are not necessarily more successful at warfare or sea faring where people of short stature might have more advantage due to needing less food. For example, Mongol archers could definitely kill enemies no matter how tall they were. So there was no advantage of being tall once better weapons were available. Selection for tallness could have happened because of peace time.
- bashmelek 7y ago>Selection for tallness could have happened because of peace time. This is an important observation and should be explored more deeply. When there is more equality for gender/class, and more economic security, people, viz. women, are freed to choose mates on other factors, such as attraction
- econcon 7y ago"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times."
- manishsharan 7y agoIf all the Dutch are so tall, then how do they decide who gets to be the CEO ?
- econcon 7y agoEven if average height is quite high. There will still be people on both sides of the bell curve much taller and much shorter than average people exists. So basically, it will look like as it looks anywhere else. Pretty sure there are 6'3 Dutchmen who feel short in Netherlands.