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I'm a designer [0] and an engineer — you'll take my shell from my cold, dead hands. There are two issues here: a) Designers trying to simplify everything beyo

I'm a designer [0] and an engineer — you'll take my shell from my cold, dead hands. There are two issues here: a) Designers trying to simplify everything beyond usefulness is a good instinct gone haywire. Simplification helps, but without an understanding of accidental complexity versus essential complexity, one is bound to end up painted into a corner with no flexibility left in the app. Few designers understand this, and those who do got it the long way round — by working on products that have a lot of essential complexity, like AdWords, and by repeatedly fighting those battles b) An engineer's operating environment, OS, IDE, shell, terminal, is a reflection of the inside of his or her mind writ large. Like every Jedi has to build their own lightsaber, every engineer has to go through this pain of building out their weapon, because one's workflow is how one thinks, how you look at the problems at hand. No UI designer can help with that. [0] (Because it's relevant to the context: ex-Google, ex-Facebook as professional experience)

meagain3 7y ago
Are you a registered member your state's engineers' association? (i.e. do you have seal?), if not please do not call yourself an engineer
- azhenley 7y ago
  There is a difference between being an engineer and holding a license (e.g., PE) from some organization.
  - meagain3 7y ago
    So just anybody can call themselves engineer?, don't you realize this is a disservice to the actual engineers?
    - ghaff 7y ago
      Yes. You may not like it. I may not even like it but everyone from people who drive trains to technicians in lots of areas use the title. Furthermore, tons of experienced working engineers outside of software don't have PEs. They're just not needed in a lot of contexts. Edit: I'm referring mostly to the US. Licensing bodies in some places (perhaps including some US states) may say that only licensed engineers can be called/are engineers although the degree to which such strictures are followed will almost certainly vary. (I was told this was the case in Texas but there's no shortage of people in Texas who call themselves engineers but aren't PEs.)
      - grovesNL 7y ago
        This isn't always the case -- it depends on where they practice, see https://www.peo.on.ca/engineering-licensing-body-clarifies-use-term-engineer-following-reported-dismissal-hydro-one https://www.peo.on.ca/engineering-licensing-body-clarifies-u... for example.
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      Who gets to decide what makes you an ‘actual’ engineer?
      - meagain3 7y ago
        Your engineering state association decides. Same as the medical associations, bar associations for lawyers, etc.
        chrisseaton 7y ago
        > Your engineering state association decides. Why should they get to do that? What do they know that I don’t? I have a Master of Engineering degree but I’m not chartered - I’m still going to call myself an engineer no matter what anyone else thinks about it. > You don't call yourself admiral right? Because I’m not commanding a fleet. If I ever came to command a fleet I’d start calling myself admiral and as long as I’m actually doing that it’d be fine. If you’re doing engineering then you’re an engineer. Some of the best software engineers in the world have no professional qualification.
        ghaff 7y ago
        It's not about titles. It's about what you're allowed to do/practice. I can certainly call myself doctor without an MD or other medical degree for which the title is customarily used. I might even do so if I had a PhD. I suppose I could do so in any case although people would think it strange if I didn't actually have a degree the same way they'd think it quite odd if I insisted on being called Your Highness. However, if I were to start practicing medicine in anything other than a first aid context or if I were to mislead people into thinking I was a certified medical professional, that's not allowed legally. By contrast, while PEs are required especially for signing off on certain documents in civil engineering, there is not in general any requirement to have one to practice engineering in the general case. In fact, there's no requirement for an undergraduate degree.
        chrisseaton 7y ago
    - meagain3 7y ago
      Addendum: can someone tell me what's wrong with using software developer as a description of what we do?, why do we need to borrow other professions titles?, it's because we want more respect?
      - inetknght 7y ago
        I would guess that's the short version of it. I would surmise that 'engineer' basically means to do a hell of a lot more rigorous logic testing of the software and hardware products and would therefore also get paid more. Then comes along these fancy little startups who want to hire away that talent but don't fully understand that the word 'engineer' is a protected word in but do know the context basically suggests more responsibility. So then they make leading roles 'engineers' and supporting roles 'developers'. Then it snowballs from there because software isn't _nearly_ as rigorous as a civil engineer or mechanical engineer where the word means that you're legally responsible for the lives at stake. I honestly think that software "engineers" should be legally liable for the lives at stake though.
      - deadcat 7y ago
        I've always referred to myself as a Developer, as my degree is Info Tech, not Engineering. I'm not an accredited engineer, so I feel I have no right to the title. It really annoys me that some manages at work call themselves Release Train Engineers.
        Gibbon1 7y ago
        I have a BSME degree. Mostly I write firmware. Generally I think an engineer as someone that does design. Key part of that is some sort of analysis. That can be ad hoc, standards based, or formal. Most of the time software feels like craft to me not engineering. Otherwise I'm more on the side that a license an engineer doesn't make. There are engineers without degrees designing and there are fat fuck PE's that just sign their name over and over for $300/hr.
  - grovesNL 7y ago
    In some jurisdictions the title "engineer" is protected because it does imply that the person is licensed.
- pjc50 7y ago
  Does your state recognise software engineering as a chartered profession?
  - ghaff 7y ago
    I'm not sure there even is an exam in the US you can take any longer for software engineering. [1] [1] https://www.nspe.org/resources/pe-magazine/may-2018/ncees-ends-software-engineering-pe-exam https://www.nspe.org/resources/pe-magazine/may-2018/ncees-en... Added: So, basically the grandparent registered on HN so they could leave comments about how people without PEs shouldn't be allowed to call themselves engineers.
- tomhoward 7y ago
  You could take it up with Cisco, who have been certifying "Network Engineers" for decades. I get your complaint; my father is a fully qualified and slightly/weirdly eminent electronics engineer (and IEEE member), so from a young age I've been made aware of the sanctity of the term in that context. But the term has been used in other contexts for a long time, and most people understand the distinction. It's not a hill worth dying on. Best save your energy for more important battles.
vsareto 7y ago
>An engineer's operating environment, OS, IDE, shell, terminal, is a reflection of the inside of his or her mind writ large. Shout out to the people that don't really bother because they're good enough to adapt to any setup. :)
- 3pt14159 7y ago
  Look I can adapt just fine. Even onto projects that run on Windows if I really need to, but investing time into making your personal environment better and faster is really, really worth it.
- cosmojg 7y ago
  Shout out to the people that use the best tools for the job because they're good enough to optimize their setup. :)
gatleon 7y ago
I like this idea of how "one's workflow is how one thinks". There is a great little book - Daily Rituals [0] - that goes into many artists' and scientists' daily habits. The habits are very much along the same lines as your thought - they are workflows for how the individual tends to think best. I'd love to see someone put together a website or book that did that in the context of software engineers' workflows. Does someone know if a resource like that already exists? [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15799151-daily-rituals https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15799151-daily-rituals -edited for grammar.
arvinsim 7y ago
I digress but I am really interested in your experience as both dev and design as I am going in this path too. How did you juggle acquiring skills for both roles? Also, where there times you had to struggle between the two mindsets on a task?

meagain3 7y ago

Are you a registered member your state's engineers' association? (i.e. do you have seal?), if not please do not call yourself an engineer

azhenley 7y ago
There is a difference between being an engineer and holding a license (e.g., PE) from some organization.
- meagain3 7y ago
  So just anybody can call themselves engineer?, don't you realize this is a disservice to the actual engineers?
  - ghaff 7y ago
    Yes. You may not like it. I may not even like it but everyone from people who drive trains to technicians in lots of areas use the title. Furthermore, tons of experienced working engineers outside of software don't have PEs. They're just not needed in a lot of contexts. Edit: I'm referring mostly to the US. Licensing bodies in some places (perhaps including some US states) may say that only licensed engineers can be called/are engineers although the degree to which such strictures are followed will almost certainly vary. (I was told this was the case in Texas but there's no shortage of people in Texas who call themselves engineers but aren't PEs.)
    - grovesNL 7y ago
      This isn't always the case -- it depends on where they practice, see https://www.peo.on.ca/engineering-licensing-body-clarifies-use-term-engineer-following-reported-dismissal-hydro-one https://www.peo.on.ca/engineering-licensing-body-clarifies-u... for example.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    Who gets to decide what makes you an ‘actual’ engineer?
    - meagain3 7y ago
      Your engineering state association decides. Same as the medical associations, bar associations for lawyers, etc.
      - chrisseaton 7y ago
        > Your engineering state association decides. Why should they get to do that? What do they know that I don’t? I have a Master of Engineering degree but I’m not chartered - I’m still going to call myself an engineer no matter what anyone else thinks about it. > You don't call yourself admiral right? Because I’m not commanding a fleet. If I ever came to command a fleet I’d start calling myself admiral and as long as I’m actually doing that it’d be fine. If you’re doing engineering then you’re an engineer. Some of the best software engineers in the world have no professional qualification.
        ghaff 7y ago
        It's not about titles. It's about what you're allowed to do/practice. I can certainly call myself doctor without an MD or other medical degree for which the title is customarily used. I might even do so if I had a PhD. I suppose I could do so in any case although people would think it strange if I didn't actually have a degree the same way they'd think it quite odd if I insisted on being called Your Highness. However, if I were to start practicing medicine in anything other than a first aid context or if I were to mislead people into thinking I was a certified medical professional, that's not allowed legally. By contrast, while PEs are required especially for signing off on certain documents in civil engineering, there is not in general any requirement to have one to practice engineering in the general case. In fact, there's no requirement for an undergraduate degree.
        chrisseaton 7y ago
  - meagain3 7y ago
    Addendum: can someone tell me what's wrong with using software developer as a description of what we do?, why do we need to borrow other professions titles?, it's because we want more respect?
    - inetknght 7y ago
      I would guess that's the short version of it. I would surmise that 'engineer' basically means to do a hell of a lot more rigorous logic testing of the software and hardware products and would therefore also get paid more. Then comes along these fancy little startups who want to hire away that talent but don't fully understand that the word 'engineer' is a protected word in but do know the context basically suggests more responsibility. So then they make leading roles 'engineers' and supporting roles 'developers'. Then it snowballs from there because software isn't _nearly_ as rigorous as a civil engineer or mechanical engineer where the word means that you're legally responsible for the lives at stake. I honestly think that software "engineers" should be legally liable for the lives at stake though.
    - deadcat 7y ago
      I've always referred to myself as a Developer, as my degree is Info Tech, not Engineering. I'm not an accredited engineer, so I feel I have no right to the title. It really annoys me that some manages at work call themselves Release Train Engineers.
      - Gibbon1 7y ago
        I have a BSME degree. Mostly I write firmware. Generally I think an engineer as someone that does design. Key part of that is some sort of analysis. That can be ad hoc, standards based, or formal. Most of the time software feels like craft to me not engineering. Otherwise I'm more on the side that a license an engineer doesn't make. There are engineers without degrees designing and there are fat fuck PE's that just sign their name over and over for $300/hr.
- grovesNL 7y ago
  In some jurisdictions the title "engineer" is protected because it does imply that the person is licensed.
pjc50 7y ago
Does your state recognise software engineering as a chartered profession?
- ghaff 7y ago
  I'm not sure there even is an exam in the US you can take any longer for software engineering. [1] [1] https://www.nspe.org/resources/pe-magazine/may-2018/ncees-ends-software-engineering-pe-exam https://www.nspe.org/resources/pe-magazine/may-2018/ncees-en... Added: So, basically the grandparent registered on HN so they could leave comments about how people without PEs shouldn't be allowed to call themselves engineers.
tomhoward 7y ago
You could take it up with Cisco, who have been certifying "Network Engineers" for decades. I get your complaint; my father is a fully qualified and slightly/weirdly eminent electronics engineer (and IEEE member), so from a young age I've been made aware of the sanctity of the term in that context. But the term has been used in other contexts for a long time, and most people understand the distinction. It's not a hill worth dying on. Best save your energy for more important battles.

vsareto 7y ago

>An engineer's operating environment, OS, IDE, shell, terminal, is a reflection of the inside of his or her mind writ large. Shout out to the people that don't really bother because they're good enough to adapt to any setup. :)

3pt14159 7y ago
Look I can adapt just fine. Even onto projects that run on Windows if I really need to, but investing time into making your personal environment better and faster is really, really worth it.
cosmojg 7y ago
Shout out to the people that use the best tools for the job because they're good enough to optimize their setup. :)

gatleon 7y ago

I like this idea of how "one's workflow is how one thinks". There is a great little book - Daily Rituals [0] - that goes into many artists' and scientists' daily habits. The habits are very much along the same lines as your thought - they are workflows for how the individual tends to think best. I'd love to see someone put together a website or book that did that in the context of software engineers' workflows. Does someone know if a resource like that already exists? [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15799151-daily-rituals https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15799151-daily-rituals -edited for grammar.

arvinsim 7y ago

I digress but I am really interested in your experience as both dev and design as I am going in this path too. How did you juggle acquiring skills for both roles? Also, where there times you had to struggle between the two mindsets on a task?