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What's your definition of unpredictable & random? I'm interested because you write off quantum mechanics as unlikely to be deterministic. When everything being

by sysbin 7y ago

What's your definition of unpredictable & random? I'm interested because you write off quantum mechanics as unlikely to be deterministic. When everything being deterministic is more realistic and from scientific understanding of systems working in nature. Contrary to determinism would be true magic. Having a force without any cause. That just feels like lack of understanding.

titzer 7y ago
> Contrary to determinism would be true magic. I used to think like this, that somehow underneath the apparent randomness of quantum mechanics there is a deterministic process that is either being sampled too slowly or too granular to see its fundamentally discrete nature. Unfortunately that is not the case. No experiment has ever measured a significant deviance from truly random for a quantum-mechanical experiment. We have no better description for the outcome of quantum experiments than the probability distributions that come out of the Schroedinger equation. Welcome to theory from 80 years ago, backed by every single experiment ever done in the intervening time. The bottom of our universe is math manipulating probability equations, and we can't see beneath it. Sorry. I was hopeful too.
- sysbin 7y ago
  > Unfortunately that is not the case. The thing is we cannot say it's not the case. I used to think like you as well. That's the disturbing problem I witness with people writing off quantum mechanics as not being deterministic. Magic as an adult is known to be trickery and only seems to be magic when lacking understanding of what forces is resulting in the trickery. Super determinism is a situation where we could be actually witnessing determinism from quantum mechanics but similar to what we believe is true randomness and cannot be observed for the forces causing it. The only thing I'm hopeful for is witnessing in my life a way to explain how something cannot be deterministic with real understanding. Besides people just thinking it must be random and if I spend hours all day thinking about this it seems like it cannot happen because it's an impossibility.
  - titzer 7y ago
    > Besides people just thinking it must be random and if I spend hours all day thinking about this it seems like it cannot happen because it's an impossibility. It's not just people thinking it must be random or it isn't random. Literally every single experiment ever conducted has failed to turn up any evidence of a deterministic process underlying the apparent randomness of quantum mechanics. We can't keep this hope alive indefinitely just because our thinking is warped by everyday experience appearing classical and discrete. We have absolutely no reason to demand our universe be deterministic, and every reason to conclude it isn't. We need to reject the idea that our universe is intuitive to human minds. For example, Bell's Theorem rules out local hidden variables. General Relativity says spacetime is warped in non-visualizable ways and that simultaneity is not even universal. That should be enough of a mindfuck for us to discard our puny human understanding of things, yet we don't.
    - sysbin 7y ago
      Bell's theorem doesn't rule out super determinism. So it's kind of whatever you want to believe (kind of situation) when it comes to not being able to have proof one side or the other. I upvoted your post btw.

by sysbin 7y ago

titzer 7y ago

> Contrary to determinism would be true magic. I used to think like this, that somehow underneath the apparent randomness of quantum mechanics there is a deterministic process that is either being sampled too slowly or too granular to see its fundamentally discrete nature. Unfortunately that is not the case. No experiment has ever measured a significant deviance from truly random for a quantum-mechanical experiment. We have no better description for the outcome of quantum experiments than the probability distributions that come out of the Schroedinger equation. Welcome to theory from 80 years ago, backed by every single experiment ever done in the intervening time. The bottom of our universe is math manipulating probability equations, and we can't see beneath it. Sorry. I was hopeful too.

sysbin 7y ago
> Unfortunately that is not the case. The thing is we cannot say it's not the case. I used to think like you as well. That's the disturbing problem I witness with people writing off quantum mechanics as not being deterministic. Magic as an adult is known to be trickery and only seems to be magic when lacking understanding of what forces is resulting in the trickery. Super determinism is a situation where we could be actually witnessing determinism from quantum mechanics but similar to what we believe is true randomness and cannot be observed for the forces causing it. The only thing I'm hopeful for is witnessing in my life a way to explain how something cannot be deterministic with real understanding. Besides people just thinking it must be random and if I spend hours all day thinking about this it seems like it cannot happen because it's an impossibility.
- titzer 7y ago
  > Besides people just thinking it must be random and if I spend hours all day thinking about this it seems like it cannot happen because it's an impossibility. It's not just people thinking it must be random or it isn't random. Literally every single experiment ever conducted has failed to turn up any evidence of a deterministic process underlying the apparent randomness of quantum mechanics. We can't keep this hope alive indefinitely just because our thinking is warped by everyday experience appearing classical and discrete. We have absolutely no reason to demand our universe be deterministic, and every reason to conclude it isn't. We need to reject the idea that our universe is intuitive to human minds. For example, Bell's Theorem rules out local hidden variables. General Relativity says spacetime is warped in non-visualizable ways and that simultaneity is not even universal. That should be enough of a mindfuck for us to discard our puny human understanding of things, yet we don't.
  - sysbin 7y ago
    Bell's theorem doesn't rule out super determinism. So it's kind of whatever you want to believe (kind of situation) when it comes to not being able to have proof one side or the other. I upvoted your post btw.