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Oh I'm not defending YC or claiming anything about its companies (I didn't pull them into the conversation at all). I was just arguing that providing some rule

Oh I'm not defending YC or claiming anything about its companies (I didn't pull them into the conversation at all). I was just arguing that providing some rules around acquisition of smaller competitors by larger companies with monopolies could push startups towards more viable business models.

scarface74 7y ago
I’m using YC as a stand in for “VC backed tech companies” because it’s the one that people on HN are probably the most familiar with. The same could be said about the other VCs.
- Ozzie_osman 7y ago
  I think I'm missing something. Yes, the VC industry has massively funded many companies. Some of those are not profitable. Some of those are even not viable. That's not a good thing. Maybe we would all be better off if funding was generally better allocated towards viable companies.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    I’m using Apple as an example here because I am most familiar with their acquisitions and the products that came from them. Why is it important for the end users of the companies are viable and not the products? Would consumers have been better off if most of the companies that Apple acquired, integrated into billions of devices and sold to consumers didn’t exist because they couldn’t foresee a viable business model outside of an acquisition?
    - Ozzie_osman 7y ago
      For Apple specifically, I'm not sure which products you're referring to, but Apple does wield a lot of monopolistic power. And maybe some acquisitions there made sense, but there could have been alternative paths (for instance, maybe if some of those companies had stayed independent, they would have been integrated into Apple as well as other manufacturers via a different business model, like licensing, being part of the supply chain, etc). In general, a viable product should lead to a viable business, since the company making the product should be able to capture the value it's delivering... but yes, there are some exceptions where you need products to be really tightly integrated and acquisitions make sense. In fact, I'd argue that with _less_ M&A we'd be more likely to live in a world where (viable product) == (viable company), because the market would be more efficient. Anyway, my argument for more regulatory oversight doesn't depend on ALL acquisitions being bad, so finding evidence that some were good for consumers doesn't necessarily negate it. I feel like what we would end up disagreeing on though is whether we can trust regulatory oversight to do a good job of making that decision. I don't trust regulation in general, but in this case specifically, I'd trust it more than giving large companies free reign.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        Here is the list I was referring to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitions_by_Apple https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitio... Just some examples Next, SoundJam (iTunes), PA Semi (processors), AuthenTec (finger print sensor), Apple Music (Beats), Siri, etc. Knowing Apple what is more likely, they would license tech or just create it in house? How do smaller companies prevent that? Patent trolling? What if the companies wanted to be acquired by Apple? Does the government step in and say you aren’t allowed to sell your business? Instead of acquiring the company what’s to stop Apple from doing an acqui-hire? Are you going to tell them they can’t work for Apple? Government intervention in businesses unless there is a severe negative externality is almost universally bad.
        Ozzie_osman 7y ago
        Monopolies, like externalities, are a huge source of market failure. Though ironically sometimes the solution to negative externalities is a (regulated) monopoly.
        scarface74 7y ago
        So now we are suppose to discourage companies from getting big? Everytine a company gets big do we really want the government to step in? Do your trust your government? Wouid you trust your government if it was the “other” party? It amazes me that people on HN willingly want to give up their agency to the government.
        Ozzie_osman 7y ago
        Huh? Where did anyone say anything about companies getting big? At this case you're just making strawman arguments. What I (and I think others) are against is anti-competitive behavior. I don't trust the government a whole lot (even my party) but I trust it more than I would a company behaving monopolistically.
        7y ago

scarface74 7y ago

I’m using YC as a stand in for “VC backed tech companies” because it’s the one that people on HN are probably the most familiar with. The same could be said about the other VCs.

Ozzie_osman 7y ago
I think I'm missing something. Yes, the VC industry has massively funded many companies. Some of those are not profitable. Some of those are even not viable. That's not a good thing. Maybe we would all be better off if funding was generally better allocated towards viable companies.
- scarface74 7y ago
  I’m using Apple as an example here because I am most familiar with their acquisitions and the products that came from them. Why is it important for the end users of the companies are viable and not the products? Would consumers have been better off if most of the companies that Apple acquired, integrated into billions of devices and sold to consumers didn’t exist because they couldn’t foresee a viable business model outside of an acquisition?
  - Ozzie_osman 7y ago
    For Apple specifically, I'm not sure which products you're referring to, but Apple does wield a lot of monopolistic power. And maybe some acquisitions there made sense, but there could have been alternative paths (for instance, maybe if some of those companies had stayed independent, they would have been integrated into Apple as well as other manufacturers via a different business model, like licensing, being part of the supply chain, etc). In general, a viable product should lead to a viable business, since the company making the product should be able to capture the value it's delivering... but yes, there are some exceptions where you need products to be really tightly integrated and acquisitions make sense. In fact, I'd argue that with _less_ M&A we'd be more likely to live in a world where (viable product) == (viable company), because the market would be more efficient. Anyway, my argument for more regulatory oversight doesn't depend on ALL acquisitions being bad, so finding evidence that some were good for consumers doesn't necessarily negate it. I feel like what we would end up disagreeing on though is whether we can trust regulatory oversight to do a good job of making that decision. I don't trust regulation in general, but in this case specifically, I'd trust it more than giving large companies free reign.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Here is the list I was referring to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitions_by_Apple https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitio... Just some examples Next, SoundJam (iTunes), PA Semi (processors), AuthenTec (finger print sensor), Apple Music (Beats), Siri, etc. Knowing Apple what is more likely, they would license tech or just create it in house? How do smaller companies prevent that? Patent trolling? What if the companies wanted to be acquired by Apple? Does the government step in and say you aren’t allowed to sell your business? Instead of acquiring the company what’s to stop Apple from doing an acqui-hire? Are you going to tell them they can’t work for Apple? Government intervention in businesses unless there is a severe negative externality is almost universally bad.
      - Ozzie_osman 7y ago
        Monopolies, like externalities, are a huge source of market failure. Though ironically sometimes the solution to negative externalities is a (regulated) monopoly.
        scarface74 7y ago
        So now we are suppose to discourage companies from getting big? Everytine a company gets big do we really want the government to step in? Do your trust your government? Wouid you trust your government if it was the “other” party? It amazes me that people on HN willingly want to give up their agency to the government.
        Ozzie_osman 7y ago
        Huh? Where did anyone say anything about companies getting big? At this case you're just making strawman arguments. What I (and I think others) are against is anti-competitive behavior. I don't trust the government a whole lot (even my party) but I trust it more than I would a company behaving monopolistically.
        7y ago