4 ms·

That isn't an answer to my question. I'm looking for a specific form, or deduction, or rule that exists because of this lobbying.

by harryh 7y ago

dumbthrow322 7y ago
[assumed bad faith]
- harryh 7y ago
  I'm not talking about IRS provided tax software. I'm talking about "tax code complexity." Things like all of our complicated deductions, or the AMT, or the NIIT or all the new goofy rules around S corps. Things like that.
  - dumbthrow322 7y ago
    Here is a decent start.[0] There's a year drop-down to see what bills Intuit lobbied for during each period. [0]https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/clients/bills?cycle=2013&id=D000026667 https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/clients/bills?c...
Ozzie_osman 7y ago
I don't have an exact form, deduction or rule. The articles include broad statements but no exact details. Anyway, I edited my comment to read "keep tax filing complex", which is much better documented in the articles, though I don't think it would change opinions or arguments, but in the spirit of being as exact as possible.
- harryh 7y ago
  I appreciate your edit. Though I further contend that the complexity of filing is directly related to the complexity of the code.
  - dangus 7y ago
    I’ll get into the weeds of it. Most people take the standard deduction. For most people, the complexity of filing is relatively low. The W2 and 1099 forms that people get contain just about 95% of the information needed to file their taxes. The current process involves getting those forms, which the IRS gets anyway, and re-entering the information into a privately run tax website. If you do this on IRS free fillable forms, you’ll have to do a significant amount of extra effort (for example, TurboTax can automatically pull in your W2 with partial information while the IRS system requires that you enter in every value manually). Just entering the W2 is a lot of the effort for people on the IRS Free Fillable Form system. Let’s continue in the workflow. You’ve got your wage information entered. The main questions to answer are: - What’s your filing status - Did you do things that could be deductions (tuition costs, mortgage payments, etc) - Are you poor enough or have special circumstances to get tax credits? For a huge percentage of people, the IRS wouldn’t even have to ask your address to get this done. They could simply verify your filing status and ask the same kinds of questions that TurboTax does to determine which forms get filled out. They would even have to ask for fewer pieces of information because, unlike TurboTax, they already have your W2 and 1099 forms and many others like bank interest and retirement/HSA distributions on file. Again, most of the effort in TurboTax is just entering in the data from the forms and answering a question or two. Taxes are only truly complex for a very small percentage of Americans who have built up enough wealth to have complex tax situations. For everyone else, they’re using free tax services, but are unnecessarily providing data to third party private companies and being upsold on unneeded add-ons constantly. Half of the time it takes to run through TurboTax is just declining all the unrelenting offers to pay them money. Essentially, the problem here is that the IRS could literally copy the best tax software and just use that for everyone. Instead their offering (free fillable forms) is artificially terrible and functions as literal digital representations of paper forms instead of abstracting away the complexity. Even for paper filling, the IRS could even have an advantage over TurboTax. Here’s how the workflow would work: - The IRS receives wage and other tax forms from employers and financial institutions as they already do now. - The IRS then prints out a customized form (automatically generated) that asks questions related to those forms they received. This would essentially be like TurboTax on paper. - The form is mailed to each taxpayer. - The taxpayer answers the questions and returns it with either payment/refund information or the IRS uses those answers to send you a bill. - Taxpayers with additional deductions above the standard deduction could either be provided with a follow-up or be asked/opt to file some additional forms. None of this is difficult to implement, especially compared to the alternative of dozens of tax filing firms implementing all of this separately.
briffle 7y ago
Your logic is backwards. The tax code is already complex. Intuit lobbies against simplifying it. You can't point to lines in bills, because they lobby to make sure changes don't go into the bills

That isn't an answer to my question. I'm looking for a specific form, or deduction, or rule that exists because of this lobbying.

by harryh 7y ago

That isn't an answer to my question. I'm looking for a specific form, or deduction, or rule that exists because of this lobbying.

dumbthrow322 7y ago

[assumed bad faith]

harryh 7y ago
I'm not talking about IRS provided tax software. I'm talking about "tax code complexity." Things like all of our complicated deductions, or the AMT, or the NIIT or all the new goofy rules around S corps. Things like that.
- dumbthrow322 7y ago
  Here is a decent start.[0] There's a year drop-down to see what bills Intuit lobbied for during each period. [0]https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/clients/bills?cycle=2013&id=D000026667 https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/clients/bills?c...

Ozzie_osman 7y ago

I don't have an exact form, deduction or rule. The articles include broad statements but no exact details. Anyway, I edited my comment to read "keep tax filing complex", which is much better documented in the articles, though I don't think it would change opinions or arguments, but in the spirit of being as exact as possible.

harryh 7y ago
I appreciate your edit. Though I further contend that the complexity of filing is directly related to the complexity of the code.
- dangus 7y ago
  I’ll get into the weeds of it. Most people take the standard deduction. For most people, the complexity of filing is relatively low. The W2 and 1099 forms that people get contain just about 95% of the information needed to file their taxes. The current process involves getting those forms, which the IRS gets anyway, and re-entering the information into a privately run tax website. If you do this on IRS free fillable forms, you’ll have to do a significant amount of extra effort (for example, TurboTax can automatically pull in your W2 with partial information while the IRS system requires that you enter in every value manually). Just entering the W2 is a lot of the effort for people on the IRS Free Fillable Form system. Let’s continue in the workflow. You’ve got your wage information entered. The main questions to answer are: - What’s your filing status - Did you do things that could be deductions (tuition costs, mortgage payments, etc) - Are you poor enough or have special circumstances to get tax credits? For a huge percentage of people, the IRS wouldn’t even have to ask your address to get this done. They could simply verify your filing status and ask the same kinds of questions that TurboTax does to determine which forms get filled out. They would even have to ask for fewer pieces of information because, unlike TurboTax, they already have your W2 and 1099 forms and many others like bank interest and retirement/HSA distributions on file. Again, most of the effort in TurboTax is just entering in the data from the forms and answering a question or two. Taxes are only truly complex for a very small percentage of Americans who have built up enough wealth to have complex tax situations. For everyone else, they’re using free tax services, but are unnecessarily providing data to third party private companies and being upsold on unneeded add-ons constantly. Half of the time it takes to run through TurboTax is just declining all the unrelenting offers to pay them money. Essentially, the problem here is that the IRS could literally copy the best tax software and just use that for everyone. Instead their offering (free fillable forms) is artificially terrible and functions as literal digital representations of paper forms instead of abstracting away the complexity. Even for paper filling, the IRS could even have an advantage over TurboTax. Here’s how the workflow would work: - The IRS receives wage and other tax forms from employers and financial institutions as they already do now. - The IRS then prints out a customized form (automatically generated) that asks questions related to those forms they received. This would essentially be like TurboTax on paper. - The form is mailed to each taxpayer. - The taxpayer answers the questions and returns it with either payment/refund information or the IRS uses those answers to send you a bill. - Taxpayers with additional deductions above the standard deduction could either be provided with a follow-up or be asked/opt to file some additional forms. None of this is difficult to implement, especially compared to the alternative of dozens of tax filing firms implementing all of this separately.

briffle 7y ago

Your logic is backwards. The tax code is already complex. Intuit lobbies against simplifying it. You can't point to lines in bills, because they lobby to make sure changes don't go into the bills