5 ms·

Japan doesn't test staff for covid19 cause they cannot work if infected

69 points by franciscop 7y ago

iforgotpassword 7y ago
Ok, so at first China ignored and downplayed the situation. The numbers they report are too low. But they went all in with their lockdown and mask craze, temperature checks, you name it. Despite all this, the rest of the world has their thumbs up their butts doing exactly what China did in the beginning. Downplay everything, pretend we might just be immune to this for some reason, or release statements that we're perfectly prepared when shit would hit the fan. My colleague returned from Beijing last week. On the plane everyone was wearing masks, not so at the airport here. And everyone just took it off pretty much right after getting off the plane. I don't get it.
- viraptor 7y ago
  That's a lot of accusations and very few references. I mean: "pretend we might just be immune to this for some reason" - is there anyone significant who claims this? (not a random celebrity or other fanatic)
  - iforgotpassword 7y ago
    No, this is rather what our way of dealing with the situation seems to imply. Or how do you explain sending all those people back to work just like that? It's like you want things to get worse. It's like we got a head start to prepare for the situation except we didn't.
- _-___________-_ 7y ago
  Maybe they subliminally took on board the advice from CDC, WHO and others that masks don't really do anything to prevent you from picking up the virus from others. People are also doing weirdly illogical things in China, like wearing the mask outside and then taking it off when they get into a restaurant where people are congregating (with a new rule: max of two to a table!) The masks are likely not effective, but if people feel better wearing them, so be it.
  - moreira 7y ago
    One thing that I learned from a recent trip to Hong Kong is that the logic behind the masks isn't to prevent you from picking up the virus (which of course is not effective, as you just said) but to stop you from infecting others with your coughs and sneezes. It's just a slightly more hygienic way of dealing with it than covering your mouth with your hand, it's not some amazing cure.
    - mrob 7y ago
      Masks also stop you from touching your nose or mouth, which many people do without noticing they're doing it.
      - _-___________-_ 7y ago
        I'm usually around Asia, so I've seen plenty of people wearing masks lately. As far as I can see they're very ineffective at stopping you from touching your face; since they are quite uncomfortable people seem to be constantly adjusting their position. This especially applies to things like the N95 masks which are extremely uncomfortable to wear for more than a short time.
    - _-___________-_ 7y ago
      > One thing that I learned from a recent trip to Hong Kong is that the logic behind the masks isn't to prevent you from picking up the virus (which of course is not effective, as you just said) but to stop you from infecting others with your coughs and sneezes. Yes, this is the same advice that the CDC and WHO give. If you're unwell yourself, wear a mask to protect others. If you're not unwell, it's not necessary to wear a mask to prevent others from infecting you, as they haven't been shown to be effective when used in this way.
- akg_67 7y ago
  I agree with your statement wrt Japan. The response until now has been very poor. For example, The information about infected patients, their locations and movements had been very hard to come by until yesterday. It has been very frustrating to figure out who might have been come in contact with infected patients. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/23/national/japan-coronavirus-patients/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/23/national/japan-... Compare Japanese response vs Korean response https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/f84hjc/in_south_korea_emergency_alerts_about_coronavirus/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/f84hjc/in_sout...
- foepys 7y ago
  At least Italy and Germany are quarantining people coming from areas that are known to be high risk. Italy is even quarantining a 50,000 people region right now after a second person died there.
sunstone 7y ago
Japanese logic has its moments.
code51 7y ago
begs for it: https://imgflip.com/i/3q1evo https://imgflip.com/i/3q1evo
anticensor 7y ago
Because what they work on is the world's most important job /s
- raverbashing 7y ago
  Sometimes I really wonder how cultural traits like these evolve. Ok I know about the Samurais and feudal Japan, at the same time, European feudalism was different. Though to be honest it's changing and now they're thinking that maybe 12h days might be too much
_-___________-_ 7y ago
I can only see this making sense if you adopt a defeatist attitude to your population getting infected, like you might with a garden-variety influenza outbreak. Almost all healthy, working-age people won't die from corona. Many of them won't even really notice that they have something other than a cold. Some won't have any symptoms at all. And you need workers (especially healthcare workers to care for the less fortunate people who do need intensive care). Therefore, if you accept that people will get infected (which is, shamefully, also accepting that more old/immunocompromised/unlucky people will die) then it does make sense to avoid quarantining people that you really need. The problem is that this isn't a garden-variety influenza outbreak; first of all it's a new virus, so you have the burden of this in addition to influenza, and second of all many things about it are still relatively unknown.
- PakG1 7y ago
  Almost all healthy, working-age people won't die from corona. Many of them won't even really notice that they have something other than a cold. Some won't have any symptoms at all. Perhaps most, and yet the whistleblower doctor in China who died was 34, and just recently a doctor who postponed his wedding scheduled for the Spring Festival in order to go help in Wuhan was 29. So are they very rare outliers or do we just not have a large enough sample size yet? https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-whistleblower-doctor-li-wenliang-in-critical-condition-2020-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-whistleblower-do... https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-kills-chinese-doctor-peng-yinhua-delayed-wedding-fight-disease-2020-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-kills-chinese-do...
  - bamboozled 7y ago
    It sounds like these guys were working on the front line, probably extremely long hours in very unsanitary conditions and exposed to extremely high viral loads. I don't disagree with your sentiment, but I can also see how they would've been in a very vulnerable place.
  - lidHanteyk 7y ago
    Doctors have more exposure to stressors of the immune system. They get sick and injured surprisingly often; while they know how to avoid exposure and injury and how to treat themselves, they cannot help but work in places like hospitals where they are constantly exposed. Additionally, air quality is worse in that area compared to where you likely live. Really, treat this like a really bad flu season. It will be bad, but it is much worse for some demographics than others.
Nokinside 7y ago
Japanese disaster and emergency preparation is said to be the best on the world. On the ground level it probably is. They train, they have the plan, they have the gear, they are prepared. When the disaster or emergency actually happens the system tends to collapse like a deck of cards. Everybody in charge is just trying to look busy instead of solving problems. Fukushima disaster was a good example of this. Government officials didn't send messages or deleted information that was supposed to go to evacuation and health organizations because "information about radiation levels is unrealistic". Use of the word meltdown was forbidden so emergency response teams did not know there was a meltdown.
- bamboozled 7y ago
  That's because the worst thing you can do for your career in Japan is to disagree with a superior. So basically, if something stupid is happening, people will mostly just let it go.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - rasz 7y ago
    Thats whole Asia in general. Korean Sewol disaster 'recovery effort' is another example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_A8dq2fA5o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_A8dq2fA5o
- ilammy 7y ago
  > Japanese disaster and emergency preparation is said to be the best on the world. My teacher said that Japan is apparently the best in the world at creating and maintaining impressions. I tend to somewhat agree.
- hrktb 7y ago
  > On the ground level it probably is I’d like to put emphasis on this. There is a huge disconnect between level headed, well prepared and truely heroic first responders, local communities, the general population reacting to a disaster; and the politicians and higher ups. Everybody knows what’s the right thing to do, and will do it when nothing stops them. But then you get the usual band of corrupt officials, incompetent C* level executives, between a rock and a hard place yes-man middle management. This disconnect makes any situation where the hierarchy (public or not) is getting bribed or needs to flee responsibility a catastrophic failure. Earthquakes are the fault of no one, and response is usually stellar. Nuclear meltdowns involve mismanagement, regulatory failings and design flaws so it becomes a shitshow in merely hours. Here in particular there is also the shadow of cancelling the upcomming Tokyo Olympic hovering about everyone’s head, making the govs choices even more opposed to what the population wants or needs.
agumonkey 7y ago
So some countries are fighting with prayers, now Japan goes in absurd denial. I guess this crisis will demonstrate lots of countries failure so they can learn (at a cost)
arkades 7y ago
Sounds like the US. I've had residents crawl into work in the middle of a enteritis, that I've had to force into a bed in the on-call room, shoved an IV in their arm, and told them not to fucking move until I'd gotten two boluses into them. They were entirely unable to work, and the question of infectiousness was well beside the point. We'd have no one to cover if they actually called in sick. If someone comes in with the flu, we don't test at all. They get handed a mask and we go on with our work day.
- hatenberg 7y ago
  They cannot afford to not work is the answer for a sizeable portion of the population. Another well for profit healthcare feature
coconut_crab 7y ago
My anecdote: 2 weeks ago I have a conversation with the a C level in Japan about policy for work from home in case of Covid-19 outbreak. At that time there were less than 10 cases in my country (Vietnam) but I want to have a plan for the worst case: the whole company gets quarantined. The answers from him were disappointing, he didn't think much of that, that there is no work from home policy in our group and I should ask somebody else, it's not his problem. The answers from the local director was worse, he made it sounds like a crime to work from home ('checking email at home sneakily' = kinshi/forbidden). In short they didn't care about it, and had no plan for it either. Now two weeks later and Vietnam has basically gotten the outbreak under control with only 16 cases despite being right next to China while Japan has more than 100 cases. And out group is scrambling to define a policy for working from home while stopping all the recruitment meetings. And I have told them all about that 2 weeks ago...
- jobigoud 7y ago
  > Vietnam has basically gotten the outbreak under control with only 16 cases despite being right next to China Is it like almost everywhere else where they refuse to test people unless they have severe symptoms and can be traced back to China?
PedroBatista 7y ago
Some passengers in the quarantined cruise ship said Japanese authorities forbidden the use of masks. Masks might be far from 100% effective but this looks like Fukushima all over again.
_bxg1 7y ago
Specifically in the case of the ministry of health this almost makes sense. If that becomes understaffed because people are sick, the rest of the country is in trouble.
woodandsteel 7y ago
There's a Japanese music group I follow on the internet. Here's what they looked like when they met with audience members after a concert last week https://twitter.com/st_luna_azul/status/1229236089170186240 https://twitter.com/st_luna_azul/status/1229236089170186240
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
sseth 7y ago
In some ways the real story is that the MoH cannot take a decision to let some staff keep working if they are found to bee infected - presumably because they are not easily replacable. It is easier for them to bypass the rule by not testing (or suppressing the results of tests) then having the autonomy to take such a decision on a case-by-case basis. Seen in this light, this is depressingly familiar and universal. Seemingly strange actions basically necessiated because of bureaucratic inflexibility.

69 points by franciscop 7y ago

Ok, so at first China ignored and downplayed the situation. The numbers they report are too low. But they went all in with their lockdown and mask craze, temperature checks, you name it. Despite all this, the rest of the world has their thumbs up their butts doing exactly what China did in the beginning. Downplay everything, pretend we might just be immune to this for some reason, or release statements that we're perfectly prepared when shit would hit the fan. My colleague returned from Beijing last week. On the plane everyone was wearing masks, not so at the airport here. And everyone just took it off pretty much right after getting off the plane. I don't get it.

viraptor 7y ago
That's a lot of accusations and very few references. I mean: "pretend we might just be immune to this for some reason" - is there anyone significant who claims this? (not a random celebrity or other fanatic)
- iforgotpassword 7y ago
  No, this is rather what our way of dealing with the situation seems to imply. Or how do you explain sending all those people back to work just like that? It's like you want things to get worse. It's like we got a head start to prepare for the situation except we didn't.
_-___________-_ 7y ago
Maybe they subliminally took on board the advice from CDC, WHO and others that masks don't really do anything to prevent you from picking up the virus from others. People are also doing weirdly illogical things in China, like wearing the mask outside and then taking it off when they get into a restaurant where people are congregating (with a new rule: max of two to a table!) The masks are likely not effective, but if people feel better wearing them, so be it.
- moreira 7y ago
  One thing that I learned from a recent trip to Hong Kong is that the logic behind the masks isn't to prevent you from picking up the virus (which of course is not effective, as you just said) but to stop you from infecting others with your coughs and sneezes. It's just a slightly more hygienic way of dealing with it than covering your mouth with your hand, it's not some amazing cure.
  - mrob 7y ago
    Masks also stop you from touching your nose or mouth, which many people do without noticing they're doing it.
    - _-___________-_ 7y ago
      I'm usually around Asia, so I've seen plenty of people wearing masks lately. As far as I can see they're very ineffective at stopping you from touching your face; since they are quite uncomfortable people seem to be constantly adjusting their position. This especially applies to things like the N95 masks which are extremely uncomfortable to wear for more than a short time.
  - _-___________-_ 7y ago
    > One thing that I learned from a recent trip to Hong Kong is that the logic behind the masks isn't to prevent you from picking up the virus (which of course is not effective, as you just said) but to stop you from infecting others with your coughs and sneezes. Yes, this is the same advice that the CDC and WHO give. If you're unwell yourself, wear a mask to protect others. If you're not unwell, it's not necessary to wear a mask to prevent others from infecting you, as they haven't been shown to be effective when used in this way.
akg_67 7y ago
I agree with your statement wrt Japan. The response until now has been very poor. For example, The information about infected patients, their locations and movements had been very hard to come by until yesterday. It has been very frustrating to figure out who might have been come in contact with infected patients. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/23/national/japan-coronavirus-patients/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/23/national/japan-... Compare Japanese response vs Korean response https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/f84hjc/in_south_korea_emergency_alerts_about_coronavirus/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/f84hjc/in_sout...
foepys 7y ago
At least Italy and Germany are quarantining people coming from areas that are known to be high risk. Italy is even quarantining a 50,000 people region right now after a second person died there.

sunstone 7y ago

Japanese logic has its moments.

code51 7y ago

begs for it: https://imgflip.com/i/3q1evo https://imgflip.com/i/3q1evo

anticensor 7y ago

Because what they work on is the world's most important job /s

raverbashing 7y ago
Sometimes I really wonder how cultural traits like these evolve. Ok I know about the Samurais and feudal Japan, at the same time, European feudalism was different. Though to be honest it's changing and now they're thinking that maybe 12h days might be too much

_-___________-_ 7y ago

I can only see this making sense if you adopt a defeatist attitude to your population getting infected, like you might with a garden-variety influenza outbreak. Almost all healthy, working-age people won't die from corona. Many of them won't even really notice that they have something other than a cold. Some won't have any symptoms at all. And you need workers (especially healthcare workers to care for the less fortunate people who do need intensive care). Therefore, if you accept that people will get infected (which is, shamefully, also accepting that more old/immunocompromised/unlucky people will die) then it does make sense to avoid quarantining people that you really need. The problem is that this isn't a garden-variety influenza outbreak; first of all it's a new virus, so you have the burden of this in addition to influenza, and second of all many things about it are still relatively unknown.

PakG1 7y ago
Almost all healthy, working-age people won't die from corona. Many of them won't even really notice that they have something other than a cold. Some won't have any symptoms at all. Perhaps most, and yet the whistleblower doctor in China who died was 34, and just recently a doctor who postponed his wedding scheduled for the Spring Festival in order to go help in Wuhan was 29. So are they very rare outliers or do we just not have a large enough sample size yet? https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-whistleblower-doctor-li-wenliang-in-critical-condition-2020-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-whistleblower-do... https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-kills-chinese-doctor-peng-yinhua-delayed-wedding-fight-disease-2020-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-kills-chinese-do...
- bamboozled 7y ago
  It sounds like these guys were working on the front line, probably extremely long hours in very unsanitary conditions and exposed to extremely high viral loads. I don't disagree with your sentiment, but I can also see how they would've been in a very vulnerable place.
- lidHanteyk 7y ago
  Doctors have more exposure to stressors of the immune system. They get sick and injured surprisingly often; while they know how to avoid exposure and injury and how to treat themselves, they cannot help but work in places like hospitals where they are constantly exposed. Additionally, air quality is worse in that area compared to where you likely live. Really, treat this like a really bad flu season. It will be bad, but it is much worse for some demographics than others.

Nokinside 7y ago

Japanese disaster and emergency preparation is said to be the best on the world. On the ground level it probably is. They train, they have the plan, they have the gear, they are prepared. When the disaster or emergency actually happens the system tends to collapse like a deck of cards. Everybody in charge is just trying to look busy instead of solving problems. Fukushima disaster was a good example of this. Government officials didn't send messages or deleted information that was supposed to go to evacuation and health organizations because "information about radiation levels is unrealistic". Use of the word meltdown was forbidden so emergency response teams did not know there was a meltdown.

bamboozled 7y ago
That's because the worst thing you can do for your career in Japan is to disagree with a superior. So basically, if something stupid is happening, people will mostly just let it go.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- rasz 7y ago
  Thats whole Asia in general. Korean Sewol disaster 'recovery effort' is another example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_A8dq2fA5o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_A8dq2fA5o
ilammy 7y ago
> Japanese disaster and emergency preparation is said to be the best on the world. My teacher said that Japan is apparently the best in the world at creating and maintaining impressions. I tend to somewhat agree.
hrktb 7y ago
> On the ground level it probably is I’d like to put emphasis on this. There is a huge disconnect between level headed, well prepared and truely heroic first responders, local communities, the general population reacting to a disaster; and the politicians and higher ups. Everybody knows what’s the right thing to do, and will do it when nothing stops them. But then you get the usual band of corrupt officials, incompetent C* level executives, between a rock and a hard place yes-man middle management. This disconnect makes any situation where the hierarchy (public or not) is getting bribed or needs to flee responsibility a catastrophic failure. Earthquakes are the fault of no one, and response is usually stellar. Nuclear meltdowns involve mismanagement, regulatory failings and design flaws so it becomes a shitshow in merely hours. Here in particular there is also the shadow of cancelling the upcomming Tokyo Olympic hovering about everyone’s head, making the govs choices even more opposed to what the population wants or needs.

agumonkey 7y ago

So some countries are fighting with prayers, now Japan goes in absurd denial. I guess this crisis will demonstrate lots of countries failure so they can learn (at a cost)

arkades 7y ago

Sounds like the US. I've had residents crawl into work in the middle of a enteritis, that I've had to force into a bed in the on-call room, shoved an IV in their arm, and told them not to fucking move until I'd gotten two boluses into them. They were entirely unable to work, and the question of infectiousness was well beside the point. We'd have no one to cover if they actually called in sick. If someone comes in with the flu, we don't test at all. They get handed a mask and we go on with our work day.

hatenberg 7y ago
They cannot afford to not work is the answer for a sizeable portion of the population. Another well for profit healthcare feature

coconut_crab 7y ago

My anecdote: 2 weeks ago I have a conversation with the a C level in Japan about policy for work from home in case of Covid-19 outbreak. At that time there were less than 10 cases in my country (Vietnam) but I want to have a plan for the worst case: the whole company gets quarantined. The answers from him were disappointing, he didn't think much of that, that there is no work from home policy in our group and I should ask somebody else, it's not his problem. The answers from the local director was worse, he made it sounds like a crime to work from home ('checking email at home sneakily' = kinshi/forbidden). In short they didn't care about it, and had no plan for it either. Now two weeks later and Vietnam has basically gotten the outbreak under control with only 16 cases despite being right next to China while Japan has more than 100 cases. And out group is scrambling to define a policy for working from home while stopping all the recruitment meetings. And I have told them all about that 2 weeks ago...

jobigoud 7y ago
> Vietnam has basically gotten the outbreak under control with only 16 cases despite being right next to China Is it like almost everywhere else where they refuse to test people unless they have severe symptoms and can be traced back to China?

PedroBatista 7y ago

Some passengers in the quarantined cruise ship said Japanese authorities forbidden the use of masks. Masks might be far from 100% effective but this looks like Fukushima all over again.

_bxg1 7y ago

Specifically in the case of the ministry of health this almost makes sense. If that becomes understaffed because people are sick, the rest of the country is in trouble.

woodandsteel 7y ago

There's a Japanese music group I follow on the internet. Here's what they looked like when they met with audience members after a concert last week https://twitter.com/st_luna_azul/status/1229236089170186240 https://twitter.com/st_luna_azul/status/1229236089170186240

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

sseth 7y ago

In some ways the real story is that the MoH cannot take a decision to let some staff keep working if they are found to bee infected - presumably because they are not easily replacable. It is easier for them to bypass the rule by not testing (or suppressing the results of tests) then having the autonomy to take such a decision on a case-by-case basis. Seen in this light, this is depressingly familiar and universal. Seemingly strange actions basically necessiated because of bureaucratic inflexibility.