3 ms·

So basically the android approach

by timwis 7y ago

enitihas 7y ago
Nope, windows phone took the Android approach. Anyways, android is usable without signing into a google account. You can use the Amazon app store (which has most of popular apps), or fdroid or download apk files yourself like windows of old. Windows is a paid product, Android is not. Apart from including ridiculous ads and telemetry some of which can't be disabled, Windows seems to be taking user hosting steps every day.
- jevgeni 7y ago
  The fact that you have to actively and deliberately fork over cash for Windows, but not for Android, where it's hidden -- that really seems to trip people up.
  - enitihas 7y ago
    And it's not hidden in windows, where you have candy crush pre-installed and ads in the start menu. So in windows, you fork over cash, give your data, and then have to seem some ads.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Candy crush is not pre-installed, it is just a link to the store, easily removable with right mouse click. Gee, I never saw people complain this way with Solitaire, Mineswepper, GNOME Games Suit, or the dump of floppies they would get on their Atari/Amiga/PC bundles.
      - shakna 7y ago
        > Gee, I never saw people complain this way with Solitaire, Mineswepper, GNOME Games Suit, or the dump of floppies they would get on their Atari/Amiga/PC bundles. Strange. Especially as those didn't actively run analytics when you run them. Perhaps those two situations aren't completely comparable.
        jevgeni 7y ago
        This is very little to do with privacy matters if you look at the comments here.
      - ptx 7y ago
        The difference is that in one case the developer is adding something purely because they think it might benefit the user, and in the other case the developer is being paid by a third party to do something to the user that they wouldn't otherwise have done.
        jevgeni 7y ago
        How is that different from any OEM bundling then? And also, how would a link to the store track and analyse you?
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Windows stuff is not stored in ROM.
        ptx 7y ago
        I guess it isn't really any different from OEM bundling, other than that you now have two links in the supply chain (both Microsoft and the OEM) being paid by third parties for adulterating the product. (I didn't say anything about tracking, but there's plenty of that in Windows already. There are settings, enabled by default, to let Microsoft track every application you launch and every website you visit.)
  - pjc50 7y ago
    Not really - the vast majority of Windows installs are just as OEM as Android.
    - jevgeni 7y ago
      Which makes the hypocrisy even more blatant.
- RaleyField 7y ago
  That's what you can do, sometimes. Step around dozens of dark patterns. It's not what your less tech-savvy relatives can realistically do.
  - enitihas 7y ago
    So with windows they are even more screwed, as they will have to pay for it, and then see ads. Worse that Android for sure.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      With Android you don't get to uninstall factory packaged apps.
      - enitihas 7y ago
        You do, you can literally disable gmail from app info. I just tried this on my moto one power and it is totally possible.
        milankragujevic 7y ago
        On cheaper Android devices that are sold at-cost or below cost, you usually can't. They need to make money on your data with those "value-add" apps, to remain profitable, so they mark ALL apps as "system required", to prevent disabling (i.e. try disabling SystemUI through the UI, it won't let you, the button will be greyed out).
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- timwis 7y ago
  Hm don’t you need to sign in on android for google play services to work? Which is necessary for a tonne of stuff
  - vezycash 7y ago
    If you don't use the play store or apps that rely on play services. It should work fine. My issue with MS's forced use of online account is that there's zero merit for doing so. I don't use the store or any store app. I don't use OneDrive, nor need to sync settings, word, app states... It doesn't make my device more secure. Instead created more attack surface for my devices. All devices connected to one account can are owned once someone takes over my email. But I do like using PIN instead of passwords. There's no valid technical reason why offline accounts can't use PIN but it is what it is. So, so I end up signing in. For Windows phone, it made sense to save my phone contacts online, and to use find my phone. Once Cortana got into the picture though they started messing up with stuff that worked fine to force Cortana on me. So stuff like quiet mode no longer worked without Cortana. And no longer worked offline. If there are clear Advantages to users more people will use Microsoft account.
- allenskd 7y ago
  I'd say it heavily depends as well, a year ago my father had one of those phones featuring Android One and it wouldn't let you use it unless you connected to wi-fi and logged in to your account. It's bizarre that functionality is blocking you for basic usage of making a call, etc. I guess the manufacturer could have opted for that type of lock-in as well with their images, but seeing Android One is a near-stock as-is OS I don't know if by default Android forces you to log in and phone manufacturers remove that type of enforcement.
  - enitihas 7y ago
    Just out of curiosity, which android one phone was this. I have used two android one phones, the Xiaomi A1 and the Motorola One Power, and both of them work fine without a google account.
    - allenskd 7y ago
      I think it was one of those cheap Alcatel phones with Android One. I don't remember well myself but I'm pretty sure it was Alcatel. I ended up helping him getting a LG G6 and for his usage it's more than enough power for him. (plus cheap in 2019 when I bought it) All problems solved. Not sure what went wrong with his phone but I couldn't even do anything with the recovery mode and resetting to factory.
      - milankragujevic 7y ago
        Alcatel doesn't have Android One, at least not internationally. They have Android Go, which is the less-resource-intensive version. However, Alcatel is absolutely awful with privacy and some of the software bundled is absolute scam-ware. Even older devices got updates via Play store for system apps like Calculator, File manager, etc., which introduced ads, and a (!!!) floating blue octopus on (every) screen which shows suggestions and full screen autoplaying ads with sound.
        allenskd 7y ago
        Then I have no idea what it was (phone brand), sorry. I just know with what I tried to troubleshoot. I'm not a fan of Alcatel.... or Blu. But translating what you just told me to not just my parents but all older folks is.... not an easy task. It's met with apathy.

So basically the android approach

by timwis 7y ago

So basically the android approach

Nope, windows phone took the Android approach. Anyways, android is usable without signing into a google account. You can use the Amazon app store (which has most of popular apps), or fdroid or download apk files yourself like windows of old. Windows is a paid product, Android is not. Apart from including ridiculous ads and telemetry some of which can't be disabled, Windows seems to be taking user hosting steps every day.

jevgeni 7y ago
The fact that you have to actively and deliberately fork over cash for Windows, but not for Android, where it's hidden -- that really seems to trip people up.
- enitihas 7y ago
  And it's not hidden in windows, where you have candy crush pre-installed and ads in the start menu. So in windows, you fork over cash, give your data, and then have to seem some ads.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Candy crush is not pre-installed, it is just a link to the store, easily removable with right mouse click. Gee, I never saw people complain this way with Solitaire, Mineswepper, GNOME Games Suit, or the dump of floppies they would get on their Atari/Amiga/PC bundles.
    - shakna 7y ago
      > Gee, I never saw people complain this way with Solitaire, Mineswepper, GNOME Games Suit, or the dump of floppies they would get on their Atari/Amiga/PC bundles. Strange. Especially as those didn't actively run analytics when you run them. Perhaps those two situations aren't completely comparable.
      - jevgeni 7y ago
        This is very little to do with privacy matters if you look at the comments here.
    - ptx 7y ago
      The difference is that in one case the developer is adding something purely because they think it might benefit the user, and in the other case the developer is being paid by a third party to do something to the user that they wouldn't otherwise have done.
      - jevgeni 7y ago
        How is that different from any OEM bundling then? And also, how would a link to the store track and analyse you?
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Windows stuff is not stored in ROM.
        ptx 7y ago
        I guess it isn't really any different from OEM bundling, other than that you now have two links in the supply chain (both Microsoft and the OEM) being paid by third parties for adulterating the product. (I didn't say anything about tracking, but there's plenty of that in Windows already. There are settings, enabled by default, to let Microsoft track every application you launch and every website you visit.)
- pjc50 7y ago
  Not really - the vast majority of Windows installs are just as OEM as Android.
  - jevgeni 7y ago
    Which makes the hypocrisy even more blatant.
RaleyField 7y ago
That's what you can do, sometimes. Step around dozens of dark patterns. It's not what your less tech-savvy relatives can realistically do.
- enitihas 7y ago
  So with windows they are even more screwed, as they will have to pay for it, and then see ads. Worse that Android for sure.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    With Android you don't get to uninstall factory packaged apps.
    - enitihas 7y ago
      You do, you can literally disable gmail from app info. I just tried this on my moto one power and it is totally possible.
      - milankragujevic 7y ago
        On cheaper Android devices that are sold at-cost or below cost, you usually can't. They need to make money on your data with those "value-add" apps, to remain profitable, so they mark ALL apps as "system required", to prevent disabling (i.e. try disabling SystemUI through the UI, it won't let you, the button will be greyed out).
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
timwis 7y ago
Hm don’t you need to sign in on android for google play services to work? Which is necessary for a tonne of stuff
- vezycash 7y ago
  If you don't use the play store or apps that rely on play services. It should work fine. My issue with MS's forced use of online account is that there's zero merit for doing so. I don't use the store or any store app. I don't use OneDrive, nor need to sync settings, word, app states... It doesn't make my device more secure. Instead created more attack surface for my devices. All devices connected to one account can are owned once someone takes over my email. But I do like using PIN instead of passwords. There's no valid technical reason why offline accounts can't use PIN but it is what it is. So, so I end up signing in. For Windows phone, it made sense to save my phone contacts online, and to use find my phone. Once Cortana got into the picture though they started messing up with stuff that worked fine to force Cortana on me. So stuff like quiet mode no longer worked without Cortana. And no longer worked offline. If there are clear Advantages to users more people will use Microsoft account.
allenskd 7y ago
I'd say it heavily depends as well, a year ago my father had one of those phones featuring Android One and it wouldn't let you use it unless you connected to wi-fi and logged in to your account. It's bizarre that functionality is blocking you for basic usage of making a call, etc. I guess the manufacturer could have opted for that type of lock-in as well with their images, but seeing Android One is a near-stock as-is OS I don't know if by default Android forces you to log in and phone manufacturers remove that type of enforcement.
- enitihas 7y ago
  Just out of curiosity, which android one phone was this. I have used two android one phones, the Xiaomi A1 and the Motorola One Power, and both of them work fine without a google account.
  - allenskd 7y ago
    I think it was one of those cheap Alcatel phones with Android One. I don't remember well myself but I'm pretty sure it was Alcatel. I ended up helping him getting a LG G6 and for his usage it's more than enough power for him. (plus cheap in 2019 when I bought it) All problems solved. Not sure what went wrong with his phone but I couldn't even do anything with the recovery mode and resetting to factory.
    - milankragujevic 7y ago
      Alcatel doesn't have Android One, at least not internationally. They have Android Go, which is the less-resource-intensive version. However, Alcatel is absolutely awful with privacy and some of the software bundled is absolute scam-ware. Even older devices got updates via Play store for system apps like Calculator, File manager, etc., which introduced ads, and a (!!!) floating blue octopus on (every) screen which shows suggestions and full screen autoplaying ads with sound.
      - allenskd 7y ago
        Then I have no idea what it was (phone brand), sorry. I just know with what I tried to troubleshoot. I'm not a fan of Alcatel.... or Blu. But translating what you just told me to not just my parents but all older folks is.... not an easy task. It's met with apathy.