7 ms·

As much as I like the idea (and the people behind it), I have an hard time seeing how this can succeed. The idea of pod reminds me of the self-hosting movement

by koevet 7y ago

As much as I like the idea (and the people behind it), I have an hard time seeing how this can succeed. The idea of pod reminds me of the self-hosting movement: people -including myself - host a bunch of services to avoid sharing fundamental data, like email, GPS-history or contacts. Still, "self-hosters" interact with all the big personal data hoarder out there (FB, Google, the many ad and tracking companies) which expose them to the same abuses as any other internet user. Basically, I don't really see a company like FB play ball with these guys, for two reasons: 1) the privatization of data would be a existential threat to their business model 2) the majority of internet users are oblivious to the data collection tactics employed by half the internet and I can't picture folks raising pitchforks for "pods" to become a standard. But I also hope to be dead wrong!

wrnr 7y ago
My best guess if it does succeed it will be in the public sector or highly regulated industries, probably in the EU and not the "consumer web" as we know it. Things like bank account information (PSD2), health care records, smart energy meters.
cinquemb 7y ago
I wouldn't necessarily equate "distributed data ownership" with privatization of data, but more to the ability for more people to leverage said data more in their favor as apposed to what the digital overlords like FB et al. just allow people to do on their platforms (and their platforms only). I think as long a some internet users at the margins get exposed to the downsides of the asymmetrical relationship they have with bulk data collection mostly benefiting the few (and have the ability to subvert it to any degree) the digital overlords are facing a death by 1000 cuts rather than the swift blow everyone seems to expect. Will Inrupt be the thing that brings the digital overlords to their knees? Probably not, that will be best achieved by the digital overloads themselves overtime by creating the conditions for people to even want to pursue and allocate resources for ideas (like those that Inrupt invokes in some) in the first place.
- koevet 7y ago
  One way Inrupt approach could work is through Trans-national regulations (e.g. EU). I still believe that a major change in the way data collection tactics are carried out should come from "below" (the people) rather than some incompetent digitally-challenged politician. Practically, if all the technical challenges of Inrupt are sorted out - and I see many - this could become a standard enforced by "enlightened" governments. This would probably take a lot of lobbying and can only work if
  - cinquemb 7y ago
    >I still believe that a major change in the way data collection tactics are carried out should come from "below" (the people) rather than some incompetent digitally-challenged politician. This is the only way as far as i'm concerned, if something is to be long lasting. People have to be living it in practice because of the inherit cost/benefits of system over another, no matter what any particular government makes a diktat for. Right now, most people are cost/benefits skewed towards the fb's (but that is slowly changing to me beacause the cost of computing continues to decline, while the knowledge of such increases at the same time as people at the margins experience higher perceived costs with the fb's). >This would probably take a lot of lobbying and can only work if Thats still playing the game of the giants… why play that game if trying to something new? Probably there are cheaper ways to subvert it, while making the giants pay increasing lobbying costs for ends that chip away at their power.
  - Igelau 7y ago
    > This would probably take a lot of lobbying and can only work if Assassinated mid-comment by rival lobby. RIP koevet, we hardly knew ye.
zuckluni 7y ago
I don't think it's an existential threat to FAANG. Because they could request access to your data to perform their AI/analytics on it to then be able to deliver you value-added personalized services. Most likely these sort of brokered accesses will be the purview of third-party data brokers who will handle your pods for you.
- koevet 7y ago
  Why would people accept their data to be harvested? I guess money could be an incentive, which is quite interesting because it would fundamentally revert the power dynamics between the big data abuser and the people. Lots of food for thought.
  - fauigerzigerk 7y ago
    >Why would people accept their data to be harvested? Same as always, to get services free of charge. If I want my photos to be searchable, I'm going to have to let someone run their AI on them. As an iPhone user, I have my photos in iCloud. I'm paying for it through high device prices and storage fees. But as Apple's business model is to sell expensive devices, they won't let me securely share my photos with my wife who doesn't own any Apple devices. So I also upload all my photos to Google Photos where I'm benefitting from a far better AI as well. If my photos were stored in a Solid pod, I could grant access to various service providers who use various different business models, but it would be far more flexible and easier to switch. That's what I'm hoping for. Not sure if it will ever come to pass, but it's worth a try.
    - threatofrain 7y ago
      To add another item to your list, when you're in Apple News and maybe you're reading a free online publication like The Hill, there's no obvious access to Safari, and when you try to share the link it's an Apple News link. There used to be an easy way to get to Safari until recently. Come on Apple.
      - 7y ago
frabcus 7y ago
It just needs to be there and be good enough, so when the time comes and people are upset enough for whatever reason, regulators can instruct FAANG to use it. Usage meanwhile by non-US public sector, corporations (worried about industrial espionage), ethical consumers, could be enough to get it to that sate.
atoav 7y ago
≥ 2) the majority of internet users are oblivious to the data collection tactics employed by half the internet and I can't picture folks raising pitchforks for "pods" to become a standard. Usually purely technical solutions to societal problems won't bring you far. It is still not bad to have them, because they essentially show what would be possible, if we just wanted. Helps in discussion as well if of all people Tim Berners-Lee was part of it. However: we have issues of education around the topic and our jurisdictive let's the big internet corps get away with too much. Starting with taxes and privacy down to the societal effects their algorithms have. What ad networks do is the digital equivalent of filming and spying on people who walk by your storefront. What they do, how they do it and the effects it has on society are wrong. Online Advertisement is probably one of the big drivers of the political division we are seeing lately, because controversial topics produce more engagement and more engagement is what people selling ads want. If you'd explain the current practise to common folk, most of them clearly don't think is okay. This means both education and media isn't doing their job.
- dataduck 7y ago
  > What ad networks do is the digital equivalent of filming and spying on people who walk by your storefront. Which is also legal, at least in the UK, and not many people have a problem with it. I think well-known, major abuses will need to occur before people take this seriously.
  - atoav 7y ago
    It is not legal in Germany and Austria at least. The UK is one of the most surveilled places in Europe.
    - morelisp 7y ago
      Some of the new JCDecaux digital signage I've seen in Berlin definitely seems to have a camera lens on its top. There's no posted notice concerning video recording, but I wonder if it's just a lens with no camera, a camera but not attached to the rest of the device, or only disabled in software.
toohotatopic 7y ago
Facebook is not the social network but an advertising company. Their product is not the data but ads. 1) They will play ball because they can incorporate the pod data into their advertising platform. They may even start hosting pods for the people who trust them. Pods allow them to sell advertisement for all the people who refuse to create facebook accounts. 2) People will instantly care once you can sell your data and make money. Facebook and other advertising companies will pay for the data. Insurance companies will reduce fees for people who have pods.
- notduncansmith 7y ago
  The last bit is what has me most concerned, services getting more expensive because everyone is expected to subsidize with their data. I guess then it’ll just be time to build something that drips realistic data about me to the pod.
tomxor 7y ago
> 1) the privatization of data would be a existential threat to their business model > 2) the majority of internet users are oblivious to the data collection tactics employed by half the internet and I can't picture folks raising pitchforks for "pods" to become a standard. Both of your points are spot on. Since #1 would only change if forced, I believe it would need to start with #2 ... which I think requires a _permanent_ social change in the perception of companies that behave like FB... Something even more potent than their recent political meddlings, something so incompatible with western political ideologies and human rights that such companies become pliable and change their business model merely to survive. I'm not sure what the instigator for such a change is yet, but it will need to make everyone very upset...
virtualritz 7y ago
Regarding 1): What I was told by the Polypoly.eu guys is that they were pushing for and helping with the policy making that led to the GDPR. They said that once it gets weaponized, using e.g. ML, it becomes /very/ effective at protecting an individual's privacy. Think seeing some picture of yourself drunk at a stag night in a strip club on FB and marking it for being moved to your private pod (for memory's sake) or deleted (because you hold a leadership position and the picture doesn't resonate 'enough' with your carefully crafted social archetype). Now the pod software will ask FB to remove the picture with a timeframe X in compliance with GDPR. Including each and every copy of the content they hold. All this happens automatically. This also triggers a process that checks if the data has disappeared from the public after timeframe X has passed. If not, the whole thing gets added to a class action lawsuit bundle by an AI. This also happens automatically. When the lawsuit reaches critical mass, it gets filed in Brussels. Automatically. Regarding 2): This is indeed a big problem still. But even more so is why people use e.g. FB in the first place. I think it will require some sort of services running atop the the pod infrastructure to make up for the loss of convenience the disappearance of certain data from platforms like FB has on end users. And I see a missing piece here, at the end, in the approaches of Inrupt/Polypoly.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
GordonS 7y ago
> the majority of internet users are oblivious to the data collection tactics employed by half the internet I agree with this, but it's even worse: the majority of the remaining internet users who do have a clue about data collection, either don't care, or accept it as inevitable.
DEADBEEFC0FFEE 7y ago
Yep, I have dabbled in self hosting and have a systems running at home for decades. Unfortunately self-hosters also have to be their own blue team, doing own vulnerability management, patching testing and it's relentless.

by koevet 7y ago

wrnr 7y ago

My best guess if it does succeed it will be in the public sector or highly regulated industries, probably in the EU and not the "consumer web" as we know it. Things like bank account information (PSD2), health care records, smart energy meters.

cinquemb 7y ago

I wouldn't necessarily equate "distributed data ownership" with privatization of data, but more to the ability for more people to leverage said data more in their favor as apposed to what the digital overlords like FB et al. just allow people to do on their platforms (and their platforms only). I think as long a some internet users at the margins get exposed to the downsides of the asymmetrical relationship they have with bulk data collection mostly benefiting the few (and have the ability to subvert it to any degree) the digital overlords are facing a death by 1000 cuts rather than the swift blow everyone seems to expect. Will Inrupt be the thing that brings the digital overlords to their knees? Probably not, that will be best achieved by the digital overloads themselves overtime by creating the conditions for people to even want to pursue and allocate resources for ideas (like those that Inrupt invokes in some) in the first place.

koevet 7y ago
One way Inrupt approach could work is through Trans-national regulations (e.g. EU). I still believe that a major change in the way data collection tactics are carried out should come from "below" (the people) rather than some incompetent digitally-challenged politician. Practically, if all the technical challenges of Inrupt are sorted out - and I see many - this could become a standard enforced by "enlightened" governments. This would probably take a lot of lobbying and can only work if
- cinquemb 7y ago
  >I still believe that a major change in the way data collection tactics are carried out should come from "below" (the people) rather than some incompetent digitally-challenged politician. This is the only way as far as i'm concerned, if something is to be long lasting. People have to be living it in practice because of the inherit cost/benefits of system over another, no matter what any particular government makes a diktat for. Right now, most people are cost/benefits skewed towards the fb's (but that is slowly changing to me beacause the cost of computing continues to decline, while the knowledge of such increases at the same time as people at the margins experience higher perceived costs with the fb's). >This would probably take a lot of lobbying and can only work if Thats still playing the game of the giants… why play that game if trying to something new? Probably there are cheaper ways to subvert it, while making the giants pay increasing lobbying costs for ends that chip away at their power.
- Igelau 7y ago
  > This would probably take a lot of lobbying and can only work if Assassinated mid-comment by rival lobby. RIP koevet, we hardly knew ye.

zuckluni 7y ago

I don't think it's an existential threat to FAANG. Because they could request access to your data to perform their AI/analytics on it to then be able to deliver you value-added personalized services. Most likely these sort of brokered accesses will be the purview of third-party data brokers who will handle your pods for you.

koevet 7y ago
Why would people accept their data to be harvested? I guess money could be an incentive, which is quite interesting because it would fundamentally revert the power dynamics between the big data abuser and the people. Lots of food for thought.
- fauigerzigerk 7y ago
  >Why would people accept their data to be harvested? Same as always, to get services free of charge. If I want my photos to be searchable, I'm going to have to let someone run their AI on them. As an iPhone user, I have my photos in iCloud. I'm paying for it through high device prices and storage fees. But as Apple's business model is to sell expensive devices, they won't let me securely share my photos with my wife who doesn't own any Apple devices. So I also upload all my photos to Google Photos where I'm benefitting from a far better AI as well. If my photos were stored in a Solid pod, I could grant access to various service providers who use various different business models, but it would be far more flexible and easier to switch. That's what I'm hoping for. Not sure if it will ever come to pass, but it's worth a try.
  - threatofrain 7y ago
    To add another item to your list, when you're in Apple News and maybe you're reading a free online publication like The Hill, there's no obvious access to Safari, and when you try to share the link it's an Apple News link. There used to be an easy way to get to Safari until recently. Come on Apple.
    - 7y ago

frabcus 7y ago

It just needs to be there and be good enough, so when the time comes and people are upset enough for whatever reason, regulators can instruct FAANG to use it. Usage meanwhile by non-US public sector, corporations (worried about industrial espionage), ethical consumers, could be enough to get it to that sate.

atoav 7y ago

≥ 2) the majority of internet users are oblivious to the data collection tactics employed by half the internet and I can't picture folks raising pitchforks for "pods" to become a standard. Usually purely technical solutions to societal problems won't bring you far. It is still not bad to have them, because they essentially show what would be possible, if we just wanted. Helps in discussion as well if of all people Tim Berners-Lee was part of it. However: we have issues of education around the topic and our jurisdictive let's the big internet corps get away with too much. Starting with taxes and privacy down to the societal effects their algorithms have. What ad networks do is the digital equivalent of filming and spying on people who walk by your storefront. What they do, how they do it and the effects it has on society are wrong. Online Advertisement is probably one of the big drivers of the political division we are seeing lately, because controversial topics produce more engagement and more engagement is what people selling ads want. If you'd explain the current practise to common folk, most of them clearly don't think is okay. This means both education and media isn't doing their job.

dataduck 7y ago
> What ad networks do is the digital equivalent of filming and spying on people who walk by your storefront. Which is also legal, at least in the UK, and not many people have a problem with it. I think well-known, major abuses will need to occur before people take this seriously.
- atoav 7y ago
  It is not legal in Germany and Austria at least. The UK is one of the most surveilled places in Europe.
  - morelisp 7y ago
    Some of the new JCDecaux digital signage I've seen in Berlin definitely seems to have a camera lens on its top. There's no posted notice concerning video recording, but I wonder if it's just a lens with no camera, a camera but not attached to the rest of the device, or only disabled in software.

toohotatopic 7y ago

Facebook is not the social network but an advertising company. Their product is not the data but ads. 1) They will play ball because they can incorporate the pod data into their advertising platform. They may even start hosting pods for the people who trust them. Pods allow them to sell advertisement for all the people who refuse to create facebook accounts. 2) People will instantly care once you can sell your data and make money. Facebook and other advertising companies will pay for the data. Insurance companies will reduce fees for people who have pods.

notduncansmith 7y ago
The last bit is what has me most concerned, services getting more expensive because everyone is expected to subsidize with their data. I guess then it’ll just be time to build something that drips realistic data about me to the pod.

tomxor 7y ago

> 1) the privatization of data would be a existential threat to their business model > 2) the majority of internet users are oblivious to the data collection tactics employed by half the internet and I can't picture folks raising pitchforks for "pods" to become a standard. Both of your points are spot on. Since #1 would only change if forced, I believe it would need to start with #2 ... which I think requires a _permanent_ social change in the perception of companies that behave like FB... Something even more potent than their recent political meddlings, something so incompatible with western political ideologies and human rights that such companies become pliable and change their business model merely to survive. I'm not sure what the instigator for such a change is yet, but it will need to make everyone very upset...

virtualritz 7y ago

Regarding 1): What I was told by the Polypoly.eu guys is that they were pushing for and helping with the policy making that led to the GDPR. They said that once it gets weaponized, using e.g. ML, it becomes /very/ effective at protecting an individual's privacy. Think seeing some picture of yourself drunk at a stag night in a strip club on FB and marking it for being moved to your private pod (for memory's sake) or deleted (because you hold a leadership position and the picture doesn't resonate 'enough' with your carefully crafted social archetype). Now the pod software will ask FB to remove the picture with a timeframe X in compliance with GDPR. Including each and every copy of the content they hold. All this happens automatically. This also triggers a process that checks if the data has disappeared from the public after timeframe X has passed. If not, the whole thing gets added to a class action lawsuit bundle by an AI. This also happens automatically. When the lawsuit reaches critical mass, it gets filed in Brussels. Automatically. Regarding 2): This is indeed a big problem still. But even more so is why people use e.g. FB in the first place. I think it will require some sort of services running atop the the pod infrastructure to make up for the loss of convenience the disappearance of certain data from platforms like FB has on end users. And I see a missing piece here, at the end, in the approaches of Inrupt/Polypoly.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

GordonS 7y ago

> the majority of internet users are oblivious to the data collection tactics employed by half the internet I agree with this, but it's even worse: the majority of the remaining internet users who do have a clue about data collection, either don't care, or accept it as inevitable.

DEADBEEFC0FFEE 7y ago

Yep, I have dabbled in self hosting and have a systems running at home for decades. Unfortunately self-hosters also have to be their own blue team, doing own vulnerability management, patching testing and it's relentless.