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Why does Spain need subs? Seems like a waste of resources.
by agrippanux 7y ago
Why does Spain need subs? Seems like a waste of resources.
- bassman9000 7y agoCountry largely surrounded by ocean/sea, with increasingly aggressive southern neighbors, and NATO responsibilities.
- rat9988 7y agoHow are spain's southern neighbors agressive?
- vnorilo 7y agoYou only need to go back ~1200 years: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_conquest_of_Hispania https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_conquest_of_Hispania
- mkl 7y agoThat doesn't really support "increasingly aggressive", and those were arguably quite different neighbours.
- bassman9000 7y agohttps://www.elmundo.es/baleares/2020/02/19/5e4c0ca121efa041428b4613.html https://www.elmundo.es/baleares/2020/02/19/5e4c0ca121efa0414... https://thediplomatinspain.com/en/2020/01/moroccan-expansionism-into-saharan-waters/ https://thediplomatinspain.com/en/2020/01/moroccan-expansion...
- mkl 7y agoThose are recent, not 1200 years ago. Therefore they do support "increasingly aggressive", which I never disputed. See my other comment.
- amval 7y agoI would say that despite some outlandish claims by ISIS and the likes, Morocco is not really planning to try and take back the iberian peninsula.
- mkl 7y agoNot OP, so not sure what they had in mind exactly, but Spain has several enclaves on Morocco's northern coast [1], including two cities of ~85k people each. Morocco is unhappy about this and has asked for sovereignty. This dispute has been armed relatively recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perejil_Island_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perejil_Island_crisis [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plazas_de_soberan%C3%ADa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plazas_de_soberan%C3%ADa
- amval 7y agoMorocco constantly sometimes makes claims over territories that don't belong them. Usually small islands of no use to anyone. Probably a play on nationalist feelings, quite stupid. Despite this theater, Morocco and Spain have a benefitial economic relationship. Something similar could be said about the UK. But they are actually more aggressive and Gibraltar harmful to the surrounding area (smuggling and off-shore societies). UK makes claims about the surrounding waters (which as far as I know, they have no claim to) and it's very bullish about enforcing that right. Given the nationalistic derive UK is taking and the change in status because of Brexit, it is very likely that tensions will rise.
- iso947 7y agoLol. Gibraltar has been UK territory for longer than the US has existed. By all means grumble about it, but if you grumble about morocco claiming Melilla in the same breath and don’t see the hypocrisy you really need to try to take an objective look at your views.
- pmargam 7y agoMelilla's been Spanish since 1487... 226 years before Spain ceded control of Gibraltar in the treaty of Utrech in 1713.
- amval 7y agoI invite you to reread my comment, as I do not talk about whether the UK having Gibraltar is legitimate or not. I simply pointed out that as far as I know and as per the treaty, it doesn't have surrounding waters. This is not something the UK agrees with and it is a source of constant tensions. If you want to draw comparisons with Melilla, it was an abandoned military plaza that was simply taken by the Castilian crown in the 15th century. It is not a colony, unlike Gibraltar (according to ONU). Morocco didn't exist as a clear political entity back then, so I am not sure what claims would they have to it. And what I was "grumbling" about Morocco referred to the "Islote de Perejil", where Morocco claimed an inhabited island near Ceuta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perejil_Island_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perejil_Island_crisis And my personal views are that if Spain could easily get rid of Ceuta and Melilla most spaniards politicians would sign right of the bat. They are just a sinkhole of money, source of diplomatic tensions and immigration problems.
- narag 7y agoTo add some facts that seems to be forgotten now: Spain was going to give up its last colony in Africa in 1975 (Western Sahara), following UN's resolutions, when Morocco invaded it taking advantage of the dictator's terminal illness.
- bassman9000 7y agoSee https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22398666 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22398666
- eb0la 7y agoThink about the Strait of Gibraltar, Ceuta, Melilla, and Canary Islands: - Gibraltar is a potential choke point for the mediterranean if something happens in the Suez Canal. - 3 nations (UK, Morocco, and Spain) have territorial waters on the strait. All three are NATO members, but the UK left the EU last month and cannot be considered as an ally for it gibraltar politics anymore... - Marocco is claiming more territry waters both in the ocean side near canary islands, and in small islands Ceuta and Melilla. See Perejil Island incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perejil_Island https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perejil_Island). Also, Spain sells a lot of weapons. Submarines are a good addition to the catalog.
- realityking 7y agoMorocco is not a member of NATO.
- iso947 7y agoSpain is so hypocritical with Gibraltar and it’s attitudes to Ceuta, Melilla and it’s other African colonies, as well as the canaries.
- bastille 7y agoI don't think this comparison is fair: - The nation of Morocco did not exist when Ceuta and Melilla became Portuguese and Spanish respectively, so I assume the only claim Morocco could have would be based on territorial integrity. They were also never part of the Spanish protectorate in Morocco, and are not recognised by the United Nations as colonies. - On the other hand, Gibraltar has been classified by the United Nations as a Non-Self-Governing Territory subject to decolonisation. Furthermore, it considers Gibraltarians mere "settlers" and as such does not recognise their right to self-determination, and urges the governments of Spain and the UK to negotiate the decolonisation process between themselves. Whether the UN's position is correct or not is whole different matter, my point is that given the UN's point of view, Spain's position on Gibraltar and Ceuta/Melilla is not contradictory. Regarding the Canary Islands and "other African colonies", I'm not sure what you are referring to as the only inhabited territories Spain has in Africa are Ceuta, Melilla and the Canary Islands, and as far as I know nobody is claiming the Canary Islands.
- goatinaboat 7y agoThese subs are for infiltration of special forces, there are many use cases for that particularly for contributing to NATO or UN operations. I don’t think anyone is claiming that Spain has a serious blue-water Navy any more, or even aspires to have one.
- pmargam 7y agoIf China with a single carrier is considered a blue-water navy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-water_navy#China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-water_navy#China ) I think Spain is up there as well ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_ship_Juan_Carlos_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_ship_Juan_Carlos_I )
- xondono 7y agoLike most nations, they don’t need nearly as much, but they’re a popular way to sell jobs programs