5 ms·

Doesn’t mean shit (to me) unless they allow alternate browser engines. I want Firefox.

by eklavya 7y ago

WWLink 7y ago
meeee toooooo. I want somethign that isn't webkit!
- sosborn 7y ago
  Why?
  - nsomaru 7y ago
    For me, Firefox with extensions and to support an open web
    - sosborn 7y ago
      Is it WebKit that holds that back or iOS sandboxing?
    - threeseed 7y ago
      Even with Firefox browser engine there would be no mechanism to install browser extensions. And WebKit is open source just like Firefox is. How is one open and not the other ?
      - nsomaru 7y ago
        Why would there be no mechanism to install extensions? I'd like to support Firefox so that we do not end up in a browser (mono|duo)culture, like the IE6 days. For this reason I use Firefox on iOS even though it's skinned WebKit. My impression is that Mozilla has generally had the well-being of netizens front and centre, social controversies involving Eich aside.
      - webmobdev 7y ago
        > Even with Firefox browser engine there would be no mechanism to install browser extensions. Why not? When we can install extensions for Mobile Safari, if other browsers are permitted with their own rendering engine, why would browser extensions for them be not allowed? > And WebKit is open source just like Firefox is. How is one open and not the other? You can like open source webkit. I can like open source Firefox. Is it fair that only you can enjoy webkit on ios and I can't enjoy Firefox on ios? That's the issue - the deliberate limitation of choice.
  - theK 7y ago
    Because it makes the web less of a mono culture. It also removes some statistics skews I would guess.
judge2020 7y ago
I don't see browser performance approaching anywhere near what webkit gets without JIT, and as I understand it, operating within the iOS app sandbox effectively nukes any attempt at performing JIT compilation (and I don't think breaking the sandbox for third-party browsers is a good idea either).
- w-ll 7y ago
  which should also open up... And allow me to stream Spotify to my watch without the phone like Apple Music.
  - threeseed 7y ago
    You need to talk to Spotify about that. Apple provided the API a while back to allow third party audio streaming and apps exist today e.g. Overcast which take advantage of it.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  You can apply a sandbox to a JIT; that’s how Safari works.
  - judge2020 7y ago
    I looked more into it - [0..1] a the only Safari has that other apps don't is MAP_JIT since running JIT means you can run unsigned code. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17998373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17998373 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18429757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18429757
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      A rather interesting point is that on recent iOS versions you actually cannot use MAP_JIT unless your process is sandboxed. (You’re quoting me in the second link, FYI.)
coldtea 7y ago
Because having a default mail app, music app, etc is not big enough itself?
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Being able to change the default applications is a tiny “feature” that every other platform has done for years.
- eklavya 7y ago
  Could very well be for you, note the (to me) part :)
millstone 7y ago
In practice, this would do nothing but accelerate the Chrome monoculture.
- eklavya 7y ago
  How would allowing more engines increase monoculture when the current situation is webkit only which is very similar to blink?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - wayneftw 7y ago
    Because the great majority of users would choose Chrome on their iPhone and not Firefox, just like they do everywhere else.
    - needle0 7y ago
      This. We are now at a point where a platform allowing more choice will actually worsen the monoculture.
webmobdev 7y ago
Came to post this - the proposals are more of a publicity stunt than actually "opening" up ios platform to developers. And the reason they are doing it because others have started complaining about Apple's abuse: > ... Apple’s closed system to prohibit users from setting third-party apps as defaults was questioned last year during a hearing of a U.S. House of Representatives antitrust panel. Lawmakers pressed the issue of whether iPhone users can make non-Apple apps their defaults in categories including web browsers, maps, email and music. > ... Last year, Stockholm-based Spotify submitted an antitrust complaint to the European Union, saying Apple squeezes rival services by imposing a 30% cut for subscriptions made via the App Store. Apple responded that Spotify wants the benefits of the App Store without paying for them. As part of its complaint, Spotify singled out the inability to run on the HomePod and become the default music player in Siri, Apple’s voice-activated digital assistant. It's good that Apple wants to avoid the fines and bad publicity and is willing to change its practices. But unless they change their philosophy and business model they will never be truly open and we customers will continue to be at their mercy and get screwed. > ... The company currently pre-installs 38 default apps on iPhones and iPads, Bloomberg News has reported, including the Safari web browser, Maps, Messages and Mail. Imagine that - Apple PRE-INSTALLS 38 DEFAULT app. We are used to complaining about computer and mobile manufactures that bundle apps on Windows and Android platforms but we accept this as a de-facto thing with Apple without a whimper. And this really, really really needs to change. A developer should be able to use whatever rendering engine s/he wants to create a browser on ios and user should have the freedom to install apps from outside the app store. Developers and users, who are both paying Apple, should be fighting for their consumer rights more aggressively rather than just giving in ... And it shouldn't stop with just Apple, but every other corporate in the tech sector who are abusing their position due to lax regulation in this industry.

Doesn’t mean shit (to me) unless they allow alternate browser engines. I want Firefox.

WWLink 7y ago

meeee toooooo. I want somethign that isn't webkit!

sosborn 7y ago
Why?
- nsomaru 7y ago
  For me, Firefox with extensions and to support an open web
  - sosborn 7y ago
    Is it WebKit that holds that back or iOS sandboxing?
  - threeseed 7y ago
    Even with Firefox browser engine there would be no mechanism to install browser extensions. And WebKit is open source just like Firefox is. How is one open and not the other ?
    - nsomaru 7y ago
      Why would there be no mechanism to install extensions? I'd like to support Firefox so that we do not end up in a browser (mono|duo)culture, like the IE6 days. For this reason I use Firefox on iOS even though it's skinned WebKit. My impression is that Mozilla has generally had the well-being of netizens front and centre, social controversies involving Eich aside.
    - webmobdev 7y ago
      > Even with Firefox browser engine there would be no mechanism to install browser extensions. Why not? When we can install extensions for Mobile Safari, if other browsers are permitted with their own rendering engine, why would browser extensions for them be not allowed? > And WebKit is open source just like Firefox is. How is one open and not the other? You can like open source webkit. I can like open source Firefox. Is it fair that only you can enjoy webkit on ios and I can't enjoy Firefox on ios? That's the issue - the deliberate limitation of choice.
- theK 7y ago
  Because it makes the web less of a mono culture. It also removes some statistics skews I would guess.

judge2020 7y ago

I don't see browser performance approaching anywhere near what webkit gets without JIT, and as I understand it, operating within the iOS app sandbox effectively nukes any attempt at performing JIT compilation (and I don't think breaking the sandbox for third-party browsers is a good idea either).

w-ll 7y ago
which should also open up... And allow me to stream Spotify to my watch without the phone like Apple Music.
- threeseed 7y ago
  You need to talk to Spotify about that. Apple provided the API a while back to allow third party audio streaming and apps exist today e.g. Overcast which take advantage of it.
saagarjha 7y ago
You can apply a sandbox to a JIT; that’s how Safari works.
- judge2020 7y ago
  I looked more into it - [0..1] a the only Safari has that other apps don't is MAP_JIT since running JIT means you can run unsigned code. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17998373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17998373 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18429757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18429757
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    A rather interesting point is that on recent iOS versions you actually cannot use MAP_JIT unless your process is sandboxed. (You’re quoting me in the second link, FYI.)

coldtea 7y ago

Because having a default mail app, music app, etc is not big enough itself?

saagarjha 7y ago
Being able to change the default applications is a tiny “feature” that every other platform has done for years.
eklavya 7y ago
Could very well be for you, note the (to me) part :)

millstone 7y ago

In practice, this would do nothing but accelerate the Chrome monoculture.

eklavya 7y ago
How would allowing more engines increase monoculture when the current situation is webkit only which is very similar to blink?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- wayneftw 7y ago
  Because the great majority of users would choose Chrome on their iPhone and not Firefox, just like they do everywhere else.
  - needle0 7y ago
    This. We are now at a point where a platform allowing more choice will actually worsen the monoculture.

webmobdev 7y ago

Came to post this - the proposals are more of a publicity stunt than actually "opening" up ios platform to developers. And the reason they are doing it because others have started complaining about Apple's abuse: > ... Apple’s closed system to prohibit users from setting third-party apps as defaults was questioned last year during a hearing of a U.S. House of Representatives antitrust panel. Lawmakers pressed the issue of whether iPhone users can make non-Apple apps their defaults in categories including web browsers, maps, email and music. > ... Last year, Stockholm-based Spotify submitted an antitrust complaint to the European Union, saying Apple squeezes rival services by imposing a 30% cut for subscriptions made via the App Store. Apple responded that Spotify wants the benefits of the App Store without paying for them. As part of its complaint, Spotify singled out the inability to run on the HomePod and become the default music player in Siri, Apple’s voice-activated digital assistant. It's good that Apple wants to avoid the fines and bad publicity and is willing to change its practices. But unless they change their philosophy and business model they will never be truly open and we customers will continue to be at their mercy and get screwed. > ... The company currently pre-installs 38 default apps on iPhones and iPads, Bloomberg News has reported, including the Safari web browser, Maps, Messages and Mail. Imagine that - Apple PRE-INSTALLS 38 DEFAULT app. We are used to complaining about computer and mobile manufactures that bundle apps on Windows and Android platforms but we accept this as a de-facto thing with Apple without a whimper. And this really, really really needs to change. A developer should be able to use whatever rendering engine s/he wants to create a browser on ios and user should have the freedom to install apps from outside the app store. Developers and users, who are both paying Apple, should be fighting for their consumer rights more aggressively rather than just giving in ... And it shouldn't stop with just Apple, but every other corporate in the tech sector who are abusing their position due to lax regulation in this industry.