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What is tragic here is the amount of effort that is now expended by young computer scientists into the game of algorithms. Whereas a young programmer in the pas

by ipnon 7y ago

What is tragic here is the amount of effort that is now expended by young computer scientists into the game of algorithms. Whereas a young programmer in the past may have spent their extra days writing games in Basic or static web pages, hackers these days seem to do Leetcode until the wheels come off. We are failing to bring certain softwares into existence by effectively requiring programmers to their effort into the World Wide Nether, finding the Kth smallest element in an unsorted BST for the millionth time, for seemingly no purpose except for it is "how things must unfortunately be done."

choppaface 7y ago
Not to mention the huge gap between supply and demand with respect to CS graduates and jobs. It’s really frustrating to hear so many new grads are struggling to get hired despite the gigantic investment in CSE. Articles like these point to the failure of the evaluation process as a bottleneck versus the common understanding that supply is limited.
- marvin 7y ago
  New graduates don't get hired? That's the first I hear about this (recently) anywhere in the world. What's changed?
  - choppaface 7y ago
    If you search the article for the string "New college grads" the author indicates he received multiple emails from new grads claiming they couldn't find jobs. Personally I've seen lots of new grads with 4-5 offers and many who were unable to find jobs out of college despite tons of interviewing.
  - banner2018 7y ago
    In my 2 decades of making livelihood with programming full time job, I have seen CS grads feeling brain dead while a Starbucks barista writing better coding. I am probably more humble observing people over all these years to admit that anyone can be a programmer given the opportunity and the heart / zest to dig deep be thorough with the solution. The part of recent grads getting job is more related to market conditions, back in 99 recruiter would be happy to hire anyone who have attended the programming 101 while in 2001-2002 no one even wanted to talk to 5 -8 yr experience candidates right after the market crash
- banner2018 7y ago
  While domestic CS grads can't find jobs , my current manager and other managers who are naturalized citizen want to prefer H1 candidate who are either ethnically alligned or speaking one of their languages. People make fun of having rejected non H1 candidate. Being a naturalized citizen I was hired so I will keep quite with the discrimination and sympathize with H1 as getting job else where is difficult for H1. I did finally file a EEOC case in MD (531-2019-01105) to document the discrimination done by Naturalized citizens. Hopefully when our kids go look for jobs, they don't have to be party to discrimination. If you feel this needs support call a Congress man or senator to take look.
pmiller2 7y ago
I notice that you mention "computer scientists," "programmers," and "hackers" in your comment. Those are all different types of people, and generally not the kind companies are looking to hire. Most companies are hiring "software engineers." That is, they want people to build stuff in a team with other software engineers, things that are well designed and stand up to the various forces that software systems are subject to. Ultimately, though, you're right. The problem is that software engineering interviews aren't actually about software engineering. And, that's what really needs to change.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  "Most companies are hiring "software engineers."" What's your reason for thinking there are more "software engineers" than "programmers"?
  - pmiller2 7y ago
    Where did I say that?
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      I'm asking what the basis for your quoted statement is. If it needs to be clarified what it meant, please do.
fishingisfun 7y ago
the discovery age is what makes new tech so fun and exciting. I loved the 90s internet because i was a young kid making all kinds of stuff online. very trivial by today's standard but it served it purpose of exploration and creativity. Today's kids are getting creative with the use of snap and tiktok. i guess i cant judge much
PragmaticPulp 7y ago
> What is tragic here is the amount of effort that is now expended by young computer scientists into the game of algorithms. This is a funny topic to me. A decade ago, before Leetcode, Hackerrank, and Cracking The Coding Interview, it was common for developers to complain that software developers were losing touch with algorithmic knowledge. HN-type websites were full of discussions about clueless software engineers doing damage to companies by implementing O(n^2) algorithms that worked fine on small datasets but failed in production. It was popular to complain that modern libraries, frameworks, and programming languages were making developers too soft to write good code. The industry responded by re-emphasizing the value of CS fundamentals and algorithmic knowledge. The training industry responded with easy tools to teach and learn these algorithms. The internet is full of easily accessible materials to teach these principles to anyone motivated enough to Google it. Now, the popular narrative has flipped. Internet comment sections want to hate algorithms and suggest that programmers don't need to understand the basics. Just rely on the frameworks and libraries to do the right thing. Just Google the solution and weave the libraries together to do what you want. > Whereas a young programmer in the past may have spent their extra days writing games in Basic or static web pages, hackers these days seem to do Leetcode until the wheels come off. Young programmers don't wake up in the morning and choose between writing static web pages or grinding leetcode. There are more opportunities than ever before to learn whatever you want. Have you actually worked with students lately? Leetcode style systems are a lot of fun for people. It's a straight to the point system that teaches algorithms and other fundamentals in self-contained brain teasers that are straight to the point. And it's trivially easy to Google for supporting training material. In my experience, the same people who are self-motivated enough to build web pages and games are frequently also interested in Leetcode style brain teasers. People aren't choosing between one or the other. That's a false dichotomy. All of the highly driven students I've worked with have a range of experience from toy projects to Leetcode style learning challenges.
- tomnj 7y ago
  > Leetcode style systems are a lot of fun for people. That’s not true for everyone, especially in such high stress situations as an interview. I like crosswords, but I wouldn’t want to do them in front of someone judging me for a job in 45 min while thinking aloud.
dpbriggs 7y ago
Hey, those people still exist. Myself and a few other people I know got their start making terrible games in python. Heck I was too young when I started learning lisp (clojure). Took a long time to get used to non-functional constructs. Things definitely changed once I got to university though. Competition for internships meant I had to get good at interviewing. The CS program I am in encourages the career focused so grinding leetcode is popular. One of my interviewers asked me a number, and used that to retrieve the n'th leetcode question from memory. There does exist a small cadre of people, myself included, who find leetcode and similar interview grinds unethical. I'd rather spend my time having a life or learning/building interesting tech. Interviews are then less of a performance art and instead a genuine 1-1 to work through a problem.
- mark-r 7y ago
  You kids have it so easy. I got my start making terrible games in Basic.
int_19h 7y ago
For what it's worth, the emphasis on algorithmic puzzles is a prominent feature of education for software engineers in Eastern Europe. And, well, there's a lot of good software engineers coming from Eastern Europe. Correlation is not necessarily causation, but it's something to ponder.

by ipnon 7y ago

choppaface 7y ago

Not to mention the huge gap between supply and demand with respect to CS graduates and jobs. It’s really frustrating to hear so many new grads are struggling to get hired despite the gigantic investment in CSE. Articles like these point to the failure of the evaluation process as a bottleneck versus the common understanding that supply is limited.

marvin 7y ago
New graduates don't get hired? That's the first I hear about this (recently) anywhere in the world. What's changed?
- choppaface 7y ago
  If you search the article for the string "New college grads" the author indicates he received multiple emails from new grads claiming they couldn't find jobs. Personally I've seen lots of new grads with 4-5 offers and many who were unable to find jobs out of college despite tons of interviewing.
- banner2018 7y ago
  In my 2 decades of making livelihood with programming full time job, I have seen CS grads feeling brain dead while a Starbucks barista writing better coding. I am probably more humble observing people over all these years to admit that anyone can be a programmer given the opportunity and the heart / zest to dig deep be thorough with the solution. The part of recent grads getting job is more related to market conditions, back in 99 recruiter would be happy to hire anyone who have attended the programming 101 while in 2001-2002 no one even wanted to talk to 5 -8 yr experience candidates right after the market crash
banner2018 7y ago
While domestic CS grads can't find jobs , my current manager and other managers who are naturalized citizen want to prefer H1 candidate who are either ethnically alligned or speaking one of their languages. People make fun of having rejected non H1 candidate. Being a naturalized citizen I was hired so I will keep quite with the discrimination and sympathize with H1 as getting job else where is difficult for H1. I did finally file a EEOC case in MD (531-2019-01105) to document the discrimination done by Naturalized citizens. Hopefully when our kids go look for jobs, they don't have to be party to discrimination. If you feel this needs support call a Congress man or senator to take look.

pmiller2 7y ago

I notice that you mention "computer scientists," "programmers," and "hackers" in your comment. Those are all different types of people, and generally not the kind companies are looking to hire. Most companies are hiring "software engineers." That is, they want people to build stuff in a team with other software engineers, things that are well designed and stand up to the various forces that software systems are subject to. Ultimately, though, you're right. The problem is that software engineering interviews aren't actually about software engineering. And, that's what really needs to change.

perl4ever 7y ago
"Most companies are hiring "software engineers."" What's your reason for thinking there are more "software engineers" than "programmers"?
- pmiller2 7y ago
  Where did I say that?
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    I'm asking what the basis for your quoted statement is. If it needs to be clarified what it meant, please do.

fishingisfun 7y ago

the discovery age is what makes new tech so fun and exciting. I loved the 90s internet because i was a young kid making all kinds of stuff online. very trivial by today's standard but it served it purpose of exploration and creativity. Today's kids are getting creative with the use of snap and tiktok. i guess i cant judge much

PragmaticPulp 7y ago

> What is tragic here is the amount of effort that is now expended by young computer scientists into the game of algorithms. This is a funny topic to me. A decade ago, before Leetcode, Hackerrank, and Cracking The Coding Interview, it was common for developers to complain that software developers were losing touch with algorithmic knowledge. HN-type websites were full of discussions about clueless software engineers doing damage to companies by implementing O(n^2) algorithms that worked fine on small datasets but failed in production. It was popular to complain that modern libraries, frameworks, and programming languages were making developers too soft to write good code. The industry responded by re-emphasizing the value of CS fundamentals and algorithmic knowledge. The training industry responded with easy tools to teach and learn these algorithms. The internet is full of easily accessible materials to teach these principles to anyone motivated enough to Google it. Now, the popular narrative has flipped. Internet comment sections want to hate algorithms and suggest that programmers don't need to understand the basics. Just rely on the frameworks and libraries to do the right thing. Just Google the solution and weave the libraries together to do what you want. > Whereas a young programmer in the past may have spent their extra days writing games in Basic or static web pages, hackers these days seem to do Leetcode until the wheels come off. Young programmers don't wake up in the morning and choose between writing static web pages or grinding leetcode. There are more opportunities than ever before to learn whatever you want. Have you actually worked with students lately? Leetcode style systems are a lot of fun for people. It's a straight to the point system that teaches algorithms and other fundamentals in self-contained brain teasers that are straight to the point. And it's trivially easy to Google for supporting training material. In my experience, the same people who are self-motivated enough to build web pages and games are frequently also interested in Leetcode style brain teasers. People aren't choosing between one or the other. That's a false dichotomy. All of the highly driven students I've worked with have a range of experience from toy projects to Leetcode style learning challenges.

tomnj 7y ago
> Leetcode style systems are a lot of fun for people. That’s not true for everyone, especially in such high stress situations as an interview. I like crosswords, but I wouldn’t want to do them in front of someone judging me for a job in 45 min while thinking aloud.

dpbriggs 7y ago

Hey, those people still exist. Myself and a few other people I know got their start making terrible games in python. Heck I was too young when I started learning lisp (clojure). Took a long time to get used to non-functional constructs. Things definitely changed once I got to university though. Competition for internships meant I had to get good at interviewing. The CS program I am in encourages the career focused so grinding leetcode is popular. One of my interviewers asked me a number, and used that to retrieve the n'th leetcode question from memory. There does exist a small cadre of people, myself included, who find leetcode and similar interview grinds unethical. I'd rather spend my time having a life or learning/building interesting tech. Interviews are then less of a performance art and instead a genuine 1-1 to work through a problem.

mark-r 7y ago
You kids have it so easy. I got my start making terrible games in Basic.

int_19h 7y ago

For what it's worth, the emphasis on algorithmic puzzles is a prominent feature of education for software engineers in Eastern Europe. And, well, there's a lot of good software engineers coming from Eastern Europe. Correlation is not necessarily causation, but it's something to ponder.