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Are you aware of the historical abuse of “literacy requirements”[1] for voting? It’s hard to understand how your proposed system would not have similar problems

Are you aware of the historical abuse of “literacy requirements”[1] for voting? It’s hard to understand how your proposed system would not have similar problems; whoever has control of the test effectively has complete power over who can become an elected official. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test

keiferski 7y ago
This is not the same thing as I am proposing. These were restrictions on voters, not on elected officials. There have always been some restrictions on elected officials (age, for example) and I think it’s obvious that you’d want competent literate people in positions. As to your second point - there could certainly be ways to address that. But the exam is a minor filter - the real selection would be via randomness, as I mentioned. If anything, the test makers would have less control over the officials than our current lobbyist system.
- grandmczeb 7y ago
  You're not proposing the same system, but the system you're proposing has same problem. Step 1: Make the test extremely difficult so essentially nobody passes. Step 2: Allow a de facto exemption for some group based on an arbitrary qualification you can control (e.g. automatic pass to those deemed to have "good community standing.") Step 3: One of your pre-chosen candidates wins the random selection since they make up the entire candidate pool.
  - keiferski 7y ago
    Of course if you just arbitrarily add rules, the idea will collapse. I don’t see how that is relevant. The basic concept I am proposing is that representatives are not selected via voting (which is deeply flawed and ineffective) but via a more fair and effective system. Ideally this would be both random and meritocratic. You’d simply design the system in a way in which the test is chosen by the population and/or by an entity separate from the representatives. At worst, you’d get the current three-part division of power system which most democratic countries are based on.
    - thu2111 7y ago
      Your problem is you can't define meritocratic in a way that everyone will agree with (if they don't agree and you try to impose this outside the democratic process anyway, they will attack you and imprison you). Indeed the very first objection you got was "literacy tests are racist". If you read the wiki page for it you'll see that the argument is not about whether they actually tested literacy or not (after the initial phase when "good moral character" exemptions disappeared), but rather whether it was legitimate to exclude new waves of immigrants who didn't speak good English at all (Italians, Russians ...). Whether to even check the ID of voters in a rigorous way is opposed on similar grounds. If you can't check the ID of voters you certainly can't check their ID when they apply to become bureaucrats, and if you can't even answer "who is this applicant" then how can you answer more sophisticated questions about them?
      - throwawayjava 7y ago
        > Your problem is you can't define meritocratic in a way that everyone will agree with Of course you can't. One man's merit is another man's vice. The very notion of a meritocracy is literally a sarcastic joke [1]. But the problem is even worse than that. EVEN IF if you could define a universally agreeable "meritocratic" system, you would still have the problem that people with power would abuse the system to lock out others. Suppose 100% "meritocratic" people were selected at random. They then immediately change the rules. Now 99.99% of people disagree with the legal definition of "meritocratic". But tough shit, cause this ain't a democracy, and the other 00.01% of people have all the power. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy#Etymology
        keiferski 7y ago
        What is considered “merit-worthy” is defined by the society implementing it. There is no such thing as objective universal merit across time and culture. I don’t see why this is controversial. It’s no different than “fair” or “justified” or innumerable other values that a society has to work out a definition for.
- rascul 7y ago
  > There have always been some restrictions on elected officials (age, for example) and I think it’s obvious that you’d want competent literate people in positions. Things like this happen sometimes: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosco_the_dog https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosco_the_dog

keiferski 7y ago

This is not the same thing as I am proposing. These were restrictions on voters, not on elected officials. There have always been some restrictions on elected officials (age, for example) and I think it’s obvious that you’d want competent literate people in positions. As to your second point - there could certainly be ways to address that. But the exam is a minor filter - the real selection would be via randomness, as I mentioned. If anything, the test makers would have less control over the officials than our current lobbyist system.

grandmczeb 7y ago
You're not proposing the same system, but the system you're proposing has same problem. Step 1: Make the test extremely difficult so essentially nobody passes. Step 2: Allow a de facto exemption for some group based on an arbitrary qualification you can control (e.g. automatic pass to those deemed to have "good community standing.") Step 3: One of your pre-chosen candidates wins the random selection since they make up the entire candidate pool.
- keiferski 7y ago
  Of course if you just arbitrarily add rules, the idea will collapse. I don’t see how that is relevant. The basic concept I am proposing is that representatives are not selected via voting (which is deeply flawed and ineffective) but via a more fair and effective system. Ideally this would be both random and meritocratic. You’d simply design the system in a way in which the test is chosen by the population and/or by an entity separate from the representatives. At worst, you’d get the current three-part division of power system which most democratic countries are based on.
  - thu2111 7y ago
    Your problem is you can't define meritocratic in a way that everyone will agree with (if they don't agree and you try to impose this outside the democratic process anyway, they will attack you and imprison you). Indeed the very first objection you got was "literacy tests are racist". If you read the wiki page for it you'll see that the argument is not about whether they actually tested literacy or not (after the initial phase when "good moral character" exemptions disappeared), but rather whether it was legitimate to exclude new waves of immigrants who didn't speak good English at all (Italians, Russians ...). Whether to even check the ID of voters in a rigorous way is opposed on similar grounds. If you can't check the ID of voters you certainly can't check their ID when they apply to become bureaucrats, and if you can't even answer "who is this applicant" then how can you answer more sophisticated questions about them?
    - throwawayjava 7y ago
      > Your problem is you can't define meritocratic in a way that everyone will agree with Of course you can't. One man's merit is another man's vice. The very notion of a meritocracy is literally a sarcastic joke [1]. But the problem is even worse than that. EVEN IF if you could define a universally agreeable "meritocratic" system, you would still have the problem that people with power would abuse the system to lock out others. Suppose 100% "meritocratic" people were selected at random. They then immediately change the rules. Now 99.99% of people disagree with the legal definition of "meritocratic". But tough shit, cause this ain't a democracy, and the other 00.01% of people have all the power. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy#Etymology
      - keiferski 7y ago
        What is considered “merit-worthy” is defined by the society implementing it. There is no such thing as objective universal merit across time and culture. I don’t see why this is controversial. It’s no different than “fair” or “justified” or innumerable other values that a society has to work out a definition for.
rascul 7y ago
> There have always been some restrictions on elected officials (age, for example) and I think it’s obvious that you’d want competent literate people in positions. Things like this happen sometimes: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosco_the_dog https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosco_the_dog