6 ms·

how I love socialist europe: free world class college in germany and france, in holland and danmark, in austria and switzerland. that and world class health car

how I love socialist europe: free world class college in germany and france, in holland and danmark, in austria and switzerland. that and world class health care for free too. yes taxes are high, insanely high by american standards - but in the end it more than evens out. plus life is less stressful.

anonymoushn 16y ago
I don't think they are insanely high by American standards. The marginal tax rate for Americans of almost all income levels is about 40%, until it drops to 15% or lower if you're extremely wealthy and able to route all your income through "investments."
- mode0 16y ago
  Where do you get this figure?
  - anonymoushn 16y ago
    MSN article: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/YourRealTaxRate40.aspx http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/YourRealTa... Paper: http://www.kotlikoff.net/sites/default/files/Does%20It%20Pay,%20at%20the%20Margin,%20to%20Work%20and%20Save.pdf http://www.kotlikoff.net/sites/default/files/Does%20It%20Pay... HN discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1656323 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1656323
    - mode0 16y ago
      Thanks for the links!
danik 16y ago
Taxes are higher, but you don't have to pay for private insurances, healthcare etc. to the same extent. I don't know why people keep bringing up the level of taxes, it's not important or interesting. What's important is how big part of your salary you need to spend on necessities like government, schools, roads, healthcare and pension. That's what should be measured.
- Vivtek 16y ago
  I don't know why people keep bringing up the level of taxes Because it wouldn't be profitable if people looked at service levels instead of an artificial number that made them think they were getting something other than the short end of every stick in their vicinity?
  - danik 16y ago
    I know why politicians do that, but why do people do it here on ycombinator?
    - Vivtek 16y ago
      They really need to think they're not getting short ends of sticks, because if they thought they were being taken for fools by the powerful they'd have to downgrade their self-opinions. Tribal buy-in works on all primates.
Vivtek 16y ago
Not insanely high, once you add up what Americans pay for health insurance that won't actually pay out if they get sick, plus state and local taxes, and higher usage fees and so on. My daughter will probably be going to TU München instead of Purdue, actually. It's time to blow this popsicle stand.
- apl 16y ago
  Good university, and way better than 90% of what the American HE market has to offer. Unless, of course, you value the electives system a lot.
  - Vivtek 16y ago
    She wants to do Aerospace, and Purdue is pretty good there (4th in the US) and we are Indiana residents - and it would still cost $40,000 plus room and board. Tuition at TU München is 500 Euros a semester and you finish a degree in three years instead of four (because they don't have to spend a year at the outset on remedial courses). Student residences are subsidized, student meals are subsidized instead of being private buffets - I mean, financially it's a no-brainer. She'll get a comparable education and we can take the same money and buy her a house when she's done. Plus my wife is Hungarian and has been wanting to go back to Budapest for a while now. So ... it's time.
- mbesto 16y ago
  Hey Michael! Sounds great. München is an awesome city. Much better than Lafayette (sorry Purdue fans). She'll learn German too! Question: As an American citizen how is it possible to take advantage of this?
  - barry-cotter 16y ago
    Citizenship has no bearing on German university entrance requirements. For almost all Bachelor programmes you need German. As an English speaker it's not that hard to learn, I met a med student last month who was accepted provisionally, conditional on acceptable TestDaF results and went from no German to sufficient to study medicine in three months (of 8 hours a day, 5 days a week study.) Note that most US high school diplomas will not get you into a German university, you need APs or community college credits. I am guessing that it would get you into a Fachhochschule[1] (again, you would need German) which grants Bachelor degrees, but is more vocational than the Universities. [1]"University of Applied Sciences" is an abombinable translation, which tells you nothing, but it's the official translation.
brudgers 16y ago
From what I understand about the German education system , significant features of US education are missing [I cannot speak to the others] - primarily a pursuit of universal access to higher education and the opportunity for second, third, and fourth chances at a college degree. To put access in perspective, University of Phoenix has 400,000 students - the entire German higher education system issues about the same number of Abitur each year. In the US more than half the population [55%] has some college compared to 22% of the German population with post-secondary education. The percentage of the US population with Masters and PHD is almost as large [10.5%] as the percentage of German population with any type of University degree [13.6%]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_U... http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/Internet/EN/Content/Statistics/BildungForschungKultur/Bildungsstand/Tabellen/Content100/Bildungsabschluss,templateId=renderPrint.psml http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/In... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitur http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitur
- apl 16y ago
  > [...] and the opportunity for second, third, and > fourth chances at a college degree. Can you clarify what you mean by that?
  - brudgers 16y ago
    In the US it is easy for people to return to university after dropping out. Even doing so multiple times is not a consideration for admission, e.g. I had five different majors over 12 years at three different universities (plus a stint in vocational school) before earning a bachelor's degree. It is also common people to pursue a bachelor's degree in their 30's or 40's or later. Culturally, in large part this is a result of the changes to US higher education created by the GI bill following WWII - one of my grandfathers earned his bachelor's degree at the age of 40 following the war and my father in law his bachelor's at 43 after retiring from the navy in the 1970's. But pursuing a degree in later life is not just tied to the GI Bill. One of my brothers-in law earned his bachelor's online at 51, another has earned two Master's degrees after age 40 (bachelor's at 36) and a third earned his bachelor's at 46. None of my relatives would have been considered for the Gymnasium under the German system and my switching majors four times would have been frowned upon within German higher education(from Electrical Engineering to Chemistry to Geology to Chemistry Education to Philosophy)
watchandwait 16y ago
French universities are a disaster: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/12/world/europe/12france.html http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/12/world/europe/12france.html
- barry-cotter 16y ago
  They spend less per capita on university students than on high school students, have something verging on universal access, and, looking at their economy, get approximately similar value out of the education system as the USA for much, much lower expenditure, and that's a disaster? Sure, university is not as much fun or as luxurious as in the states, but what is actually wrong with the French system for French society? Note, I did not say for French students or French academics.
anamax 16y ago
> yes taxes are high, insanely high by american standards - but in the end it more than evens out. plus life is less stressful. The US tax revenue per person is about the same as the tax revenue per person in Western European countries. (The US collects more taxes per person than Canada.) That means that the US govt has the money to provide europe-class services. It doesn't, but that's not due to a lack of money. Note that US GDP per person is significantly higher than much of Western Europe.

anonymoushn 16y ago

I don't think they are insanely high by American standards. The marginal tax rate for Americans of almost all income levels is about 40%, until it drops to 15% or lower if you're extremely wealthy and able to route all your income through "investments."

mode0 16y ago
Where do you get this figure?
- anonymoushn 16y ago
  MSN article: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/YourRealTaxRate40.aspx http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/YourRealTa... Paper: http://www.kotlikoff.net/sites/default/files/Does%20It%20Pay,%20at%20the%20Margin,%20to%20Work%20and%20Save.pdf http://www.kotlikoff.net/sites/default/files/Does%20It%20Pay... HN discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1656323 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1656323
  - mode0 16y ago
    Thanks for the links!

danik 16y ago

Taxes are higher, but you don't have to pay for private insurances, healthcare etc. to the same extent. I don't know why people keep bringing up the level of taxes, it's not important or interesting. What's important is how big part of your salary you need to spend on necessities like government, schools, roads, healthcare and pension. That's what should be measured.

Vivtek 16y ago
I don't know why people keep bringing up the level of taxes Because it wouldn't be profitable if people looked at service levels instead of an artificial number that made them think they were getting something other than the short end of every stick in their vicinity?
- danik 16y ago
  I know why politicians do that, but why do people do it here on ycombinator?
  - Vivtek 16y ago
    They really need to think they're not getting short ends of sticks, because if they thought they were being taken for fools by the powerful they'd have to downgrade their self-opinions. Tribal buy-in works on all primates.

Vivtek 16y ago

Not insanely high, once you add up what Americans pay for health insurance that won't actually pay out if they get sick, plus state and local taxes, and higher usage fees and so on. My daughter will probably be going to TU München instead of Purdue, actually. It's time to blow this popsicle stand.

apl 16y ago
Good university, and way better than 90% of what the American HE market has to offer. Unless, of course, you value the electives system a lot.
- Vivtek 16y ago
  She wants to do Aerospace, and Purdue is pretty good there (4th in the US) and we are Indiana residents - and it would still cost $40,000 plus room and board. Tuition at TU München is 500 Euros a semester and you finish a degree in three years instead of four (because they don't have to spend a year at the outset on remedial courses). Student residences are subsidized, student meals are subsidized instead of being private buffets - I mean, financially it's a no-brainer. She'll get a comparable education and we can take the same money and buy her a house when she's done. Plus my wife is Hungarian and has been wanting to go back to Budapest for a while now. So ... it's time.
mbesto 16y ago
Hey Michael! Sounds great. München is an awesome city. Much better than Lafayette (sorry Purdue fans). She'll learn German too! Question: As an American citizen how is it possible to take advantage of this?
- barry-cotter 16y ago
  Citizenship has no bearing on German university entrance requirements. For almost all Bachelor programmes you need German. As an English speaker it's not that hard to learn, I met a med student last month who was accepted provisionally, conditional on acceptable TestDaF results and went from no German to sufficient to study medicine in three months (of 8 hours a day, 5 days a week study.) Note that most US high school diplomas will not get you into a German university, you need APs or community college credits. I am guessing that it would get you into a Fachhochschule[1] (again, you would need German) which grants Bachelor degrees, but is more vocational than the Universities. [1]"University of Applied Sciences" is an abombinable translation, which tells you nothing, but it's the official translation.

brudgers 16y ago

From what I understand about the German education system , significant features of US education are missing [I cannot speak to the others] - primarily a pursuit of universal access to higher education and the opportunity for second, third, and fourth chances at a college degree. To put access in perspective, University of Phoenix has 400,000 students - the entire German higher education system issues about the same number of Abitur each year. In the US more than half the population [55%] has some college compared to 22% of the German population with post-secondary education. The percentage of the US population with Masters and PHD is almost as large [10.5%] as the percentage of German population with any type of University degree [13.6%]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_U... http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/Internet/EN/Content/Statistics/BildungForschungKultur/Bildungsstand/Tabellen/Content100/Bildungsabschluss,templateId=renderPrint.psml http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/In... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitur http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitur

apl 16y ago
> [...] and the opportunity for second, third, and > fourth chances at a college degree. Can you clarify what you mean by that?
- brudgers 16y ago
  In the US it is easy for people to return to university after dropping out. Even doing so multiple times is not a consideration for admission, e.g. I had five different majors over 12 years at three different universities (plus a stint in vocational school) before earning a bachelor's degree. It is also common people to pursue a bachelor's degree in their 30's or 40's or later. Culturally, in large part this is a result of the changes to US higher education created by the GI bill following WWII - one of my grandfathers earned his bachelor's degree at the age of 40 following the war and my father in law his bachelor's at 43 after retiring from the navy in the 1970's. But pursuing a degree in later life is not just tied to the GI Bill. One of my brothers-in law earned his bachelor's online at 51, another has earned two Master's degrees after age 40 (bachelor's at 36) and a third earned his bachelor's at 46. None of my relatives would have been considered for the Gymnasium under the German system and my switching majors four times would have been frowned upon within German higher education(from Electrical Engineering to Chemistry to Geology to Chemistry Education to Philosophy)

watchandwait 16y ago

French universities are a disaster: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/12/world/europe/12france.html http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/12/world/europe/12france.html

barry-cotter 16y ago
They spend less per capita on university students than on high school students, have something verging on universal access, and, looking at their economy, get approximately similar value out of the education system as the USA for much, much lower expenditure, and that's a disaster? Sure, university is not as much fun or as luxurious as in the states, but what is actually wrong with the French system for French society? Note, I did not say for French students or French academics.

anamax 16y ago

> yes taxes are high, insanely high by american standards - but in the end it more than evens out. plus life is less stressful. The US tax revenue per person is about the same as the tax revenue per person in Western European countries. (The US collects more taxes per person than Canada.) That means that the US govt has the money to provide europe-class services. It doesn't, but that's not due to a lack of money. Note that US GDP per person is significantly higher than much of Western Europe.