6 ms·

> Public salaries on the other hand reduce a company's flexibility: When negotiating a new contract, they cannot offer 10% more anymore. Why not?

by clarry 7y ago

ChuckNorris89 7y ago
Because then every other employee already working there would want that extra 10% the new guy got so the company's salary expenses would spiral out of control(or reaching their actual market value, as it rightfully should be). People wouldn't be job hopping if you could get the same raise as the new guys. Not saying I like this but it's the current situation in Europe where the power lies with the company and the ones who loose are those that are too loyal to the company(most employees outside SW dev don't bother looking around every few years like we do).
- watwut 7y ago
  The question is whether it is overall good system to punish people for staying asuming same quality of work.
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    The current system of punishing people who stay long at a company is still in place because it works, and it works very well. Lots of employees here have bought into this company spread propaganda that job hopping like in the US will make you unemployable in the future. As the employees get older and get tied down with families and homes and also Job Stockholm Syndrome they're less likely to shop around for new jobs so the savings on salaries on seniors being paid below market are huge.
    - oAlbe 7y ago
      > Lots of employees here have bought into this company spread propaganda that job hopping like in the US will make you unemployable in the future. But is that ultimately true? It feels to me that the companies hold the power to make that true, regardless of the propaganda. So even if you try to job hop, after a certain age they have all the power to make you unemployable. Am I wrong? (I hope I am)
      - jb775 7y ago
        I think it depends if the job is a "lifelong-learning" type of job or not. I don't think anyone would say a doctor is unemployable because they moved to a new hospital every 2 years. I think software development is a lifelong-learning type industry where job hopping can actually be beneficial - you get to re-hone your existing skillset from a new perspective and are forced to constantly learn new tools. I think constant job hopping is bad in 3 situations: 1) If you work a non lifelong-learning job. 2) If you work a job that is mostly industry-specific relationship based. 3) If you are jumping around to different job roles entirely, where you never really become exceptionally talented at any single role. My general rule of thumb for deciding when to job hop is when I feel as if I've stopped learning new things.
    - watwut 7y ago
      Is it working well? Average software projects, codebases and their management are messy almost disasters. For many reasons. But half a team being either new or right before leaving is definitely not helping. The fact that people leave before they can find the right match position in company or team, learn it well and spend some time there is not helping. And afaik, large companies and large successful projects tend to have more stable core team behind them.
- black_puppydog 7y ago
  1. If the new hire is worth 10% more, then the employer will be able to justify that. "He's got much more experience than you" or such. Put differently: you can only offer those extra 10% if you can actually justify it in a way that others agree with you. Might actually turn out to be a rationality corrective so to say. 2. If you don't want people to job-hop because they see what some new hire earns, then you're either overpaying the new one (and unnecessarily alienating your workers) or you're underpaying the current employees, and you should raise their salary or expect them to hop.
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    1. Worth is relative. You can't know the performance of someone you've just interviewed for an hour to someone who's been working there for years. The new guy might just be good at whiteboarding and negotiating but could be a mediocre employee at best on your codebase. When you get a job your pay isn't dictated by your "worth", whatever that is, but by current market conditions. 2. That's how it should be in an ideal world but the reality is different and companies know through years of experience that the current system works better for them rather than the one you'd want.
    - madeofpalk 7y ago
      > Worth is relative. You can't know the performance of someone you've just interviewed for an hour to someone who's been working there for years Supposedly you can because you're offering them 10% more than the rest of your employees...
      - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
        Like I said previously, you're offering them 10% more because of market conditions(you need some fresh meat on your project ASAP), not because of their (yet unknown) performance, and hedge your bets that the ones already working for you won't find out(here salaries are confidential) or are to tied down to be looking for new jobs so soon. I hate this approach, but for most companies in Europe it's the reality that works in their favor.
- clarry 7y ago
  > People wouldn't be job hopping if you could get the same raise as the new guys. This sounds like a massive win for all but the bottom of the barrel tier companies. Finding and training new people (while giving them 10% more) as the old guys who know their shit leave for a better job is super expensive.
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    That's the thing, most "old" guys don't leave since they get too busy with their private life(building a house, having kids) or they pidgeonholed themselves into some company specific niche with few options around or they got Job Stockholm Syndrome and are less inclined to shop around for better gigs.
    - clarry 7y ago
      The current situation is that you get a raise if you change jobs. So anyone who wants a better salary is currently very much encouraged to hop jobs. If companies had pressure to give raises internally, this would give less reason to hop jobs. I think that's a good thing for mostly everyone (including their employers). Everyone except dirt cheap shops where nobody wants to work anyway if they have choices.
      - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
        >So anyone who wants a better salary is currently very much encouraged to hop jobs But who is encouraging you? Since in Europe/Rest of the World(except US/UK) companies never mention how much they're willing to pay and even the recruiters they hire are sometimes not allowed to mention the upper range to their candidates. So nobody knows they're underpaid unless you're willing to take your free time and apply to jobs, contact recruiters and go interview at a few companies and go through some rounds of negotiations. And even then lots of companies will look at your application very suspiciously that you're applying to new jobs so soon and they'll expect something's wrong with your relationship with your current employer or with you so some might not even make you an offer. For most senior employees with families that's a lot of trouble to go through so they don't even bother unless a recruiter knocks on their door with the offer of a lifetime.
- 101404 7y ago
  > use then every other employee already working there would want that extra 10% the new guy got Not if the new guy is 10% better at what they do. And if he's not, then maybe the others actually deserve that 10% more. Good thing.
  - BeetleB 7y ago
    > Not if the new guy is 10% better at what they do. In most cases, this is not the case. In fact, it's often the case that the new person is really new and will require significant hand holding to be productive. They pay them 10% more because the new person has multiple offers, and most existing employees aren't seeking alternatives, so they have little leverage.
    - 101404 7y ago
      So, at the moment, loyalty is punished. Seems to be a good idea to change that.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  People want all sorts of things, it doesn’t mean they get them. The US doesn’t have organized labor anymore for the most part, and companies don’t give a shit about people’s feelings.
- mcphage 7y ago
  > People wouldn't be job hopping if you could get the same raise as the new guys. That sounds like a huge win for companies.

> Public salaries on the other hand reduce a company's flexibility: When negotiating a new contract, they cannot offer 10% more anymore. Why not?

by clarry 7y ago

> Public salaries on the other hand reduce a company's flexibility: When negotiating a new contract, they cannot offer 10% more anymore. Why not?

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

Because then every other employee already working there would want that extra 10% the new guy got so the company's salary expenses would spiral out of control(or reaching their actual market value, as it rightfully should be). People wouldn't be job hopping if you could get the same raise as the new guys. Not saying I like this but it's the current situation in Europe where the power lies with the company and the ones who loose are those that are too loyal to the company(most employees outside SW dev don't bother looking around every few years like we do).

watwut 7y ago
The question is whether it is overall good system to punish people for staying asuming same quality of work.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  The current system of punishing people who stay long at a company is still in place because it works, and it works very well. Lots of employees here have bought into this company spread propaganda that job hopping like in the US will make you unemployable in the future. As the employees get older and get tied down with families and homes and also Job Stockholm Syndrome they're less likely to shop around for new jobs so the savings on salaries on seniors being paid below market are huge.
  - oAlbe 7y ago
    > Lots of employees here have bought into this company spread propaganda that job hopping like in the US will make you unemployable in the future. But is that ultimately true? It feels to me that the companies hold the power to make that true, regardless of the propaganda. So even if you try to job hop, after a certain age they have all the power to make you unemployable. Am I wrong? (I hope I am)
    - jb775 7y ago
      I think it depends if the job is a "lifelong-learning" type of job or not. I don't think anyone would say a doctor is unemployable because they moved to a new hospital every 2 years. I think software development is a lifelong-learning type industry where job hopping can actually be beneficial - you get to re-hone your existing skillset from a new perspective and are forced to constantly learn new tools. I think constant job hopping is bad in 3 situations: 1) If you work a non lifelong-learning job. 2) If you work a job that is mostly industry-specific relationship based. 3) If you are jumping around to different job roles entirely, where you never really become exceptionally talented at any single role. My general rule of thumb for deciding when to job hop is when I feel as if I've stopped learning new things.
  - watwut 7y ago
    Is it working well? Average software projects, codebases and their management are messy almost disasters. For many reasons. But half a team being either new or right before leaving is definitely not helping. The fact that people leave before they can find the right match position in company or team, learn it well and spend some time there is not helping. And afaik, large companies and large successful projects tend to have more stable core team behind them.
black_puppydog 7y ago
1. If the new hire is worth 10% more, then the employer will be able to justify that. "He's got much more experience than you" or such. Put differently: you can only offer those extra 10% if you can actually justify it in a way that others agree with you. Might actually turn out to be a rationality corrective so to say. 2. If you don't want people to job-hop because they see what some new hire earns, then you're either overpaying the new one (and unnecessarily alienating your workers) or you're underpaying the current employees, and you should raise their salary or expect them to hop.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  1. Worth is relative. You can't know the performance of someone you've just interviewed for an hour to someone who's been working there for years. The new guy might just be good at whiteboarding and negotiating but could be a mediocre employee at best on your codebase. When you get a job your pay isn't dictated by your "worth", whatever that is, but by current market conditions. 2. That's how it should be in an ideal world but the reality is different and companies know through years of experience that the current system works better for them rather than the one you'd want.
  - madeofpalk 7y ago
    > Worth is relative. You can't know the performance of someone you've just interviewed for an hour to someone who's been working there for years Supposedly you can because you're offering them 10% more than the rest of your employees...
    - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
      Like I said previously, you're offering them 10% more because of market conditions(you need some fresh meat on your project ASAP), not because of their (yet unknown) performance, and hedge your bets that the ones already working for you won't find out(here salaries are confidential) or are to tied down to be looking for new jobs so soon. I hate this approach, but for most companies in Europe it's the reality that works in their favor.
clarry 7y ago
> People wouldn't be job hopping if you could get the same raise as the new guys. This sounds like a massive win for all but the bottom of the barrel tier companies. Finding and training new people (while giving them 10% more) as the old guys who know their shit leave for a better job is super expensive.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  That's the thing, most "old" guys don't leave since they get too busy with their private life(building a house, having kids) or they pidgeonholed themselves into some company specific niche with few options around or they got Job Stockholm Syndrome and are less inclined to shop around for better gigs.
  - clarry 7y ago
    The current situation is that you get a raise if you change jobs. So anyone who wants a better salary is currently very much encouraged to hop jobs. If companies had pressure to give raises internally, this would give less reason to hop jobs. I think that's a good thing for mostly everyone (including their employers). Everyone except dirt cheap shops where nobody wants to work anyway if they have choices.
    - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
      >So anyone who wants a better salary is currently very much encouraged to hop jobs But who is encouraging you? Since in Europe/Rest of the World(except US/UK) companies never mention how much they're willing to pay and even the recruiters they hire are sometimes not allowed to mention the upper range to their candidates. So nobody knows they're underpaid unless you're willing to take your free time and apply to jobs, contact recruiters and go interview at a few companies and go through some rounds of negotiations. And even then lots of companies will look at your application very suspiciously that you're applying to new jobs so soon and they'll expect something's wrong with your relationship with your current employer or with you so some might not even make you an offer. For most senior employees with families that's a lot of trouble to go through so they don't even bother unless a recruiter knocks on their door with the offer of a lifetime.
101404 7y ago
> use then every other employee already working there would want that extra 10% the new guy got Not if the new guy is 10% better at what they do. And if he's not, then maybe the others actually deserve that 10% more. Good thing.
- BeetleB 7y ago
  > Not if the new guy is 10% better at what they do. In most cases, this is not the case. In fact, it's often the case that the new person is really new and will require significant hand holding to be productive. They pay them 10% more because the new person has multiple offers, and most existing employees aren't seeking alternatives, so they have little leverage.
  - 101404 7y ago
    So, at the moment, loyalty is punished. Seems to be a good idea to change that.
Spooky23 7y ago
People want all sorts of things, it doesn’t mean they get them. The US doesn’t have organized labor anymore for the most part, and companies don’t give a shit about people’s feelings.
mcphage 7y ago
> People wouldn't be job hopping if you could get the same raise as the new guys. That sounds like a huge win for companies.