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So you see no problem with economic externalities and the drive to shorten the lifetime of all goods we produce in order to sell another one as quickly as possi

So you see no problem with economic externalities and the drive to shorten the lifetime of all goods we produce in order to sell another one as quickly as possible? Pollution and limited resources are not a problem?

chrisco255 7y ago
True pollution is a problem. But it's been largely solved in developed countries. Which resources are you worried about running out?
- triceratops 7y ago
  Fresh water. Arable land. Habitable land. Developed countries hide their pollution slightly better (no belching smokestacks or filthy rivers) but it's still there.[1] Most people don't live in developed countries. Don't they deserve to have pollution-free living conditions too? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit#Environmental_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit#Environmental_eff...
  - chrisco255 7y ago
    It looks like they're working on the Berkeley Pit: https://www.mtpr.org/post/montanas-berkeley-pit-water-treatment-facility-begins-construction https://www.mtpr.org/post/montanas-berkeley-pit-water-treatm... But yeah the developing countries do deserve it. However, it remains a complex political issue. How do you declare or enforce regulations in countries outside of our jurisdiction? You can try to convince those countries it's worth it but you can't force them to.
    - triceratops 7y ago
      Tariffs and sanctions. "Tax carbon or you can't trade with us. We'll freeze your assets in our banks. We'll get our allies to do the same thing. Any company that trades with you can't do business here." It works to force compliance on many other issues.
      - Sabinus 7y ago
        But it only works if we've made efforts to fix our own carbon emitting economies. Before anyone makes the currently popular "why aren't you telling China and India to stop emitting" argument
        triceratops 7y ago
        > But it only works if we've made efforts to fix our own carbon emitting economies Climate denialism in developed countries has many forms. Some of them include: 1. It's not happening 2. It's happening but it's natural 3. It's happening and it's because of human activity but it'll cost too much to fix it. 4. We could fix it but we'd be outcompeted by everyone else who doesn't. So let's not. Tariffs and sanctions are to address #4. Rich countries absolutely must fix their economies, no question about it.
- chrisco255 7y ago
  Fresh water will never run out. Specific regions on the planet will experience drought or floods from time to time but that's the way it's always been. Meanwhile look to Israel and how they've managed to build desalinization plants efficiently and now they have an abundance of fresh water where they used to have very little. Crop yields are up (more than 100% in past few decades), so arable land doesn't appear to be a problem. I can't reply to below response but no, desalination has gotten much cheaper: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/israel-proves-the-desalination-era-is-here/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/israel-proves-the... They use lava rocks and some membranes to filter the salt out. And no, we don't control the rain.
  - triceratops 7y ago
    > Specific regions on the planet will experience drought or floods And you don't think it's a problem that entirely preventable human activities are causing this? How would you feel if you lived in a drought-stricken region? The Indian subcontinent is one such region. Historically, and cumulatively, the people living there haven't contributed very much to climate change. But they're the ones that will pay a price for it. > Meanwhile look to Israel and how they've managed to build desalinization plants efficiently Desalinization requires a lot of energy and is capital-intensive. Even if it's cheaper than it used to be, it's not cheaper than taking fresh water out of a lake or reservoir, treating it, and piping it. Why should poor countries pay a "desal tax" for a problem they didn't cause? Are you proposing for developed countries to fund desal plants for developing countries as compensation for causing climate change? What you're saying is "It's not a problem for me. Tough luck if it is for you".

chrisco255 7y ago

True pollution is a problem. But it's been largely solved in developed countries. Which resources are you worried about running out?

triceratops 7y ago
Fresh water. Arable land. Habitable land. Developed countries hide their pollution slightly better (no belching smokestacks or filthy rivers) but it's still there.[1] Most people don't live in developed countries. Don't they deserve to have pollution-free living conditions too? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit#Environmental_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit#Environmental_eff...
- chrisco255 7y ago
  It looks like they're working on the Berkeley Pit: https://www.mtpr.org/post/montanas-berkeley-pit-water-treatment-facility-begins-construction https://www.mtpr.org/post/montanas-berkeley-pit-water-treatm... But yeah the developing countries do deserve it. However, it remains a complex political issue. How do you declare or enforce regulations in countries outside of our jurisdiction? You can try to convince those countries it's worth it but you can't force them to.
  - triceratops 7y ago
    Tariffs and sanctions. "Tax carbon or you can't trade with us. We'll freeze your assets in our banks. We'll get our allies to do the same thing. Any company that trades with you can't do business here." It works to force compliance on many other issues.
    - Sabinus 7y ago
      But it only works if we've made efforts to fix our own carbon emitting economies. Before anyone makes the currently popular "why aren't you telling China and India to stop emitting" argument
      - triceratops 7y ago
        > But it only works if we've made efforts to fix our own carbon emitting economies Climate denialism in developed countries has many forms. Some of them include: 1. It's not happening 2. It's happening but it's natural 3. It's happening and it's because of human activity but it'll cost too much to fix it. 4. We could fix it but we'd be outcompeted by everyone else who doesn't. So let's not. Tariffs and sanctions are to address #4. Rich countries absolutely must fix their economies, no question about it.
chrisco255 7y ago
Fresh water will never run out. Specific regions on the planet will experience drought or floods from time to time but that's the way it's always been. Meanwhile look to Israel and how they've managed to build desalinization plants efficiently and now they have an abundance of fresh water where they used to have very little. Crop yields are up (more than 100% in past few decades), so arable land doesn't appear to be a problem. I can't reply to below response but no, desalination has gotten much cheaper: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/israel-proves-the-desalination-era-is-here/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/israel-proves-the... They use lava rocks and some membranes to filter the salt out. And no, we don't control the rain.
- triceratops 7y ago
  > Specific regions on the planet will experience drought or floods And you don't think it's a problem that entirely preventable human activities are causing this? How would you feel if you lived in a drought-stricken region? The Indian subcontinent is one such region. Historically, and cumulatively, the people living there haven't contributed very much to climate change. But they're the ones that will pay a price for it. > Meanwhile look to Israel and how they've managed to build desalinization plants efficiently Desalinization requires a lot of energy and is capital-intensive. Even if it's cheaper than it used to be, it's not cheaper than taking fresh water out of a lake or reservoir, treating it, and piping it. Why should poor countries pay a "desal tax" for a problem they didn't cause? Are you proposing for developed countries to fund desal plants for developing countries as compensation for causing climate change? What you're saying is "It's not a problem for me. Tough luck if it is for you".