4 ms·

This is bad advice for the vast majority of startup employees (basically anyone who is not an executive, and even most executives) because companies (rightfully

by harryh 7y ago

This is bad advice for the vast majority of startup employees (basically anyone who is not an executive, and even most executives) because companies (rightfully so) will not accept redlined stock agreements for individual employees. In which case the employee will have paid a lawyer a bunch of money for for nothing in a way that is entirely foreseeable. Deciding that working at a startup (with the comp structures that come with that) isn't right for you? Totally fine. Startups aren't for everyone. But don't go waste money on a lawyer who's work will 100% for sure just get thrown in the garbage. TBH any lawyer who even takes this work is either bad (because they don't realize the work is a waste) or a scammer (because they know and don't care).

m0zg 7y ago
harryh, before writing this you should have disclosed that you're "CTO at Attentive", as your HN profile states. It goes without saying that you won't like this advice, because it's absolutely, unequivocally 100% the right advice for senior prospective employees such as myself (and you, as well, but you already knew that). I don't see how it's even up for debate that a lawyer should review any agreements when substantial equity is involved - they're full of abusive clauses by default, and people are absolutely clueless about the finer points of all this. This is something a cursory skimming of a single article is not going to fix. Don't like the redlines? They're pretty easy to avoid: just don't put this bullshit in your equity agreements.
- tptacek 7y ago
  This is fucked up. He's giving the advice because it's true (I've had the experience he's describing). Giving the true advice (or not!) isn't going to cost him a dollar, and, regardless: * Accusing people of commenting in bad faith like this is against the HN guidelines, and * Bringing personal details about commenters in threads into arguments is very against the HN guidelines.
  - m0zg 7y ago
    I've had the opposite experience though: they hemmed and hawed and then signed my redlined agreement. And I don't see why pointing out something that's in the user profile is "very" against the guidelines. And "walk away" is a good advice for startups in general nowadays, for reasons outlined here: https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/ https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/, even without abusive clauses in equity contracts. I did win the lottery in the end, but very few people do. Even fewer if they don't have their contracts reviewed by a lawyer. I have similar experiences now as well, when doing consulting work: I have my lawyer redline nearly every single contract, as, I'm sure, you do as well. Not once have I lost any work because of this.
    - tptacek 7y ago
      Then say that. What you said was not OK. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=author%3Adang%20personal%20details&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... The thing to do here to course-correct is to apologize. That doesn't involve conceding your argument. In fact, it will make people take your argument more seriously.
JamesBarney 7y ago
Even if most startups won't accept a redlined contract it's a still important to understand how much your compensated and what the terms are, and $500 doesn't seem like an unreasonable amount for that. Hacker news is filled with stories of individuals who worked very hard for very long to make a company successful and their compensation was far less than they understood when they signed their contract. See Toptal for an example.
- harryh 7y ago
  I agree! Asking a lawyer to read a contract and explain it to you: totally worth it. I will actually clarify even further and say that redlines on employment contracts are definitely possible. It's really just for equity agreements where you aren't going to make any headway.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - JamesBarney 7y ago
    Oh ok I misunderstood you, that makes sense. Yeah, my understanding is the same as yours that equity agreements are the hardest items to negotiate. So hard it's probably impossible unless you would make a strategic impact on the organization.(like you're an executive or one of the top 20 nlp experts in the world) No founder wants to explain to a potential investor how their equity agreements work and then have to continue with "except Joe"
    - harryh 7y ago
      and then have to continue with "except Joe" Yup. Exactly.
    - m0zg 7y ago
      >> "except Joe" Very easy to avoid this: just don't put abusive clauses in there that Joe's lawyer will inevitably redline, and don't count on him signing it without checking with a lawyer.

by harryh 7y ago

m0zg 7y ago

harryh, before writing this you should have disclosed that you're "CTO at Attentive", as your HN profile states. It goes without saying that you won't like this advice, because it's absolutely, unequivocally 100% the right advice for senior prospective employees such as myself (and you, as well, but you already knew that). I don't see how it's even up for debate that a lawyer should review any agreements when substantial equity is involved - they're full of abusive clauses by default, and people are absolutely clueless about the finer points of all this. This is something a cursory skimming of a single article is not going to fix. Don't like the redlines? They're pretty easy to avoid: just don't put this bullshit in your equity agreements.

tptacek 7y ago
This is fucked up. He's giving the advice because it's true (I've had the experience he's describing). Giving the true advice (or not!) isn't going to cost him a dollar, and, regardless: * Accusing people of commenting in bad faith like this is against the HN guidelines, and * Bringing personal details about commenters in threads into arguments is very against the HN guidelines.
- m0zg 7y ago
  I've had the opposite experience though: they hemmed and hawed and then signed my redlined agreement. And I don't see why pointing out something that's in the user profile is "very" against the guidelines. And "walk away" is a good advice for startups in general nowadays, for reasons outlined here: https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/ https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/, even without abusive clauses in equity contracts. I did win the lottery in the end, but very few people do. Even fewer if they don't have their contracts reviewed by a lawyer. I have similar experiences now as well, when doing consulting work: I have my lawyer redline nearly every single contract, as, I'm sure, you do as well. Not once have I lost any work because of this.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    Then say that. What you said was not OK. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=author%3Adang%20personal%20details&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... The thing to do here to course-correct is to apologize. That doesn't involve conceding your argument. In fact, it will make people take your argument more seriously.

JamesBarney 7y ago

Even if most startups won't accept a redlined contract it's a still important to understand how much your compensated and what the terms are, and $500 doesn't seem like an unreasonable amount for that. Hacker news is filled with stories of individuals who worked very hard for very long to make a company successful and their compensation was far less than they understood when they signed their contract. See Toptal for an example.

harryh 7y ago
I agree! Asking a lawyer to read a contract and explain it to you: totally worth it. I will actually clarify even further and say that redlines on employment contracts are definitely possible. It's really just for equity agreements where you aren't going to make any headway.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- JamesBarney 7y ago
  Oh ok I misunderstood you, that makes sense. Yeah, my understanding is the same as yours that equity agreements are the hardest items to negotiate. So hard it's probably impossible unless you would make a strategic impact on the organization.(like you're an executive or one of the top 20 nlp experts in the world) No founder wants to explain to a potential investor how their equity agreements work and then have to continue with "except Joe"
  - harryh 7y ago
    and then have to continue with "except Joe" Yup. Exactly.
  - m0zg 7y ago
    >> "except Joe" Very easy to avoid this: just don't put abusive clauses in there that Joe's lawyer will inevitably redline, and don't count on him signing it without checking with a lawyer.