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Hi, author here. I’m here to answer any questions but also I want to advertise the fact that it would be really really awesome if interested devs can join the p

by osy 7y ago

Hi, author here. I’m here to answer any questions but also I want to advertise the fact that it would be really really awesome if interested devs can join the project. Currently it’s just me doing this on my spare time for the past year. Specifically I’m a complete newbie at UI/UX stuff and the project could use a real designer/front end developer. Also for more info and a few videos demonstrating capabilities and performance check out the website: https://getutm.app/ https://getutm.app/

lazerl0rd 7y ago
Thanks for the amazing work, I thought about this a while back when I saw WINE Hangover for Android but this is even better (in some ways, at least). Sadly, the iPadOS/iOS 13.3.1 issue is a headache and the certain jailbreak tools which usually get around IPA signing aren't working either. Whilst most people are saying it's a bug on Apple's side I'm worried it's more than that. The removal of signed iPadOS/iOS 13.3 from their servers, along with the returned ability of flashing static lib'ed packages after all being blocked for a while seems more "on purpose" from Apple rather than "by accident". We gotta just wait and see, I guess.
- osy 7y ago
  I think the jailbreak IPA signing isn’t working because it needs the `get-task-allow` entitlement which idk if every tool is aware of. This entitlement is only given out in development profiles and not any distribution profiles so I can’t upload to TestFlight either. If Apple locks down what you can do with `get-task-allow` in the future then a jailbreak would be required to run this.
  - lazerl0rd 7y ago
    Would you by any chance consider TestFlight to distribute UTM? iSH (a usermode Linux "terminal" emulator) has been for quite some time, and I can't see why you shouldn't be able to.
    - osy 7y ago
      > This entitlement is only given out in development profiles and not any distribution profiles so I can’t upload to TestFlight either.
      - lazerl0rd 7y ago
        Ah sorry, my bad, I skipped over that. Here's an idea - you could start a "fundraising" of sorts and if you get enough you could purchase a developer profile to publish to TestFlight.
        osy 7y ago
        You can’t purchase such a profile. Apple doesn’t ever give them out.
        lazerl0rd 7y ago
        I thought this would be part of their $99/year subscription, well that's unfortunate. Thanks again for your project.
        JimDabell 7y ago
        The problem here is not that they can't obtain a development certificate. The problem is that you cannot use a development certificate to distribute an app on TestFlight or the App Store to other people. There are two types of certificate – development certificates, which allow get-task-allow for debugging purposes and can be installed directly to a device; and distribution certificates, which do not allow get-task-allow and can be distributed through ad-hoc means, Test Flight, or the App Store. If this app requires get-task-allow, then it needs to be signed with a development certificate to run. If it's signed with a development certificate, then it can't be distributed to other people.
    - jsjohnst 7y ago
      iSH works differently. It’s not running “Linux” and it isn’t virtualizing hardware either. Anything you run has to be compiled already and the syscalls are emulated, there is no Linux kernel in iSH.
  - asveikau 7y ago
    Curious what you use that for. My previous exposure for "get task" on Darwin/XNU is it's useful for reading or writing the memory of another process and suspending or resuming its threads, as in writing a debugger.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      The app pretends to debug itself, which tricks the kernel into allowing it to flip the permissions of pages between write and execute. To do this it needs the get_task_allow entitlement.
      - asveikau 7y ago
        Ah ok. So everything with a JIT will need this. I think I might even have read that somewhere long ago. This is a weird thing by the way. It seems to me like you should be able to debug or do VM syscalls against yourself because there is no escalation of privilege. Debugging another process makes much more sense to block. But maybe my opinion is invalid because I also happen to think disallowing jit with kernel permissions is very silly. (Maybe dropping ability to do this in the style of openbsd's pledge(2) would be appropriate, but only for a process that really wants extra security.)
        saagarjha 7y ago
        > So everything with a JIT will need this. Actual JITs (ones blessed by Apple, not hacks like these) possess the dynamic-codesigning entitlement, and can just make RWX pages. > But maybe my opinion is invalid because I also happen to think disallowing jit with kernel permissions is very silly. Your opinion isn't invalid, but it goes against Apple's security model of iOS (namely: apps should not be able to modify themselves).
        asveikau 7y ago
        > Your opinion isn't invalid, but it goes against Apple's security model of iOS (namely: apps should not be able to modify themselves). And my position is this is a silly approach, or, maybe is ok but should be opt-in, or perhaps opt-out with third parties being automatically trusted to decide they want to use JIT without hoops. W^X is good default policy but Apple's policy is unreasonable and paranoid.
jsjohnst 7y ago
First of all, huge TY! I used iBochs on a first gen iPad and successfully ran Linux, Windows 95, and DOS on it. I’ve tried a few times to modernize that code for current iOS releases, but was unsuccessful. I did spend a bunch of time back in the day building a nice UI for iBochs so would be game to help do that for UTM. My contact info is in my profile if you are still looking for folks!
- osy 7y ago
  Thanks! If you’re interested please fork the project on github and make a PR when you’re ready. I want this project eventually to be community run so I’m not going to be “in charge” of anything.
saagarjha 7y ago
How long did it take you to make this?
- osy 7y ago
  Most of the development was done on my free time in a span of three months. Then I got bored and didn’t touch it for half a year and decided to polish it up a little last week and release it.
nottorp 7y ago
Question then: why are you investing time in something that Apple will never allow in the app store? Isn't it better to spend your effort on a more open platform? Note: i use an iPhone and iPads. I do my hacking/customizing elsewhere.
- _-___________-_ 7y ago
  Because it's useful even if it's not allowed in the App Store? There's tons of useful open-source software for iOS which will never make it to the App Store.
  - anticensor 7y ago
    This includes the real Firefox.
    - theshadowknows 7y ago
      Please explain...
      - anticensor 7y ago
        Using the Gecko/Servo like desktop Firefox, not WebKit like Safari.
        theshadowknows 7y ago
        Ah I see. For a moment I thought you meant someone had made some side-loadable full Firefox and I was going to be so happy.
- busymom0 7y ago
  Another reason is that even though right now they don’t allow it, what if they do start allowing it in the future? Pythonista app is a perfect example of this. It was originally not allowed but they eventually changed their rules to start allowing it back in ios 11 I believe. Maybe the same would happen with this if this becomes decently useful. IPad is already going in a more mainstream direction.
AnyTimeTraveler 7y ago
I have a 4th generation iPad. Would it work on that as well? Since Apple dropped support for it, it's stuck with iOS 10 and effectively useless. I would love to run Linux on it...
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Unfortunately UTM requires iOS 11. Perhaps someone might be able to backport it?
VvR-Ox 7y ago
Thank you very much for sharing this with us. I am about to test it. I have already installed it successfully and it opens without crashing (iPad Air 2, iOS 13.3, unc0ver jailbreak) - so far so good ;-) I will report back when I tried to install Win XP/7 (I desperately want to play Age of Empires 1 while on vacation since I saw this awesome app :D).
- VvR-Ox 7y ago
  So here is my journey with UTM: 1. Install UTM - harder than I thought now because of Apple enforcing very strict app signing rules etc. (why can't they just let us run our own code without paying or hacking? Ò.ó) - jailbreak with checkra1n -> install AppCake -> trust certificates with help of "Apple Configurator" (device management was not in the iOS general settings until I accessed profile settings with the configurator) -> sign UTM with AppCake (Filza -> Open IPA with AppCake) 2. Setup VM with Windows XP - copied ISO (WinXP SP3) to iPad with VLC "Sharing via WiFi" (awesome tool!) - created a VM with a 5GB hdd and a CD/DVD with path set to the ISO - could boot from the ISO and start installation but it crashed after the reboot. I tried again and again by opening UTM again, opening the VM settings (not doing so would instantly crash UTM when I tried to start the VM again) - finally I realized assigning 1GB of RAM to the VM (iPad Air 2 has only 2GB total) was too much and I changed it to 512MB (default setting) which let me finish the installation of Win XP! :-D No I will try to install Age of Empires 1 and when I get hands on adapter + keyboard + mouse I will try those with UTM as well.
  - VvR-Ox 7y ago
    Installing AoE worked but I am afraid I could not start it :-/ It demands graphics with directdraw and will not start. How did you get Halflife running?

by osy 7y ago

lazerl0rd 7y ago

Thanks for the amazing work, I thought about this a while back when I saw WINE Hangover for Android but this is even better (in some ways, at least). Sadly, the iPadOS/iOS 13.3.1 issue is a headache and the certain jailbreak tools which usually get around IPA signing aren't working either. Whilst most people are saying it's a bug on Apple's side I'm worried it's more than that. The removal of signed iPadOS/iOS 13.3 from their servers, along with the returned ability of flashing static lib'ed packages after all being blocked for a while seems more "on purpose" from Apple rather than "by accident". We gotta just wait and see, I guess.

osy 7y ago
I think the jailbreak IPA signing isn’t working because it needs the `get-task-allow` entitlement which idk if every tool is aware of. This entitlement is only given out in development profiles and not any distribution profiles so I can’t upload to TestFlight either. If Apple locks down what you can do with `get-task-allow` in the future then a jailbreak would be required to run this.
- lazerl0rd 7y ago
  Would you by any chance consider TestFlight to distribute UTM? iSH (a usermode Linux "terminal" emulator) has been for quite some time, and I can't see why you shouldn't be able to.
  - osy 7y ago
    > This entitlement is only given out in development profiles and not any distribution profiles so I can’t upload to TestFlight either.
    - lazerl0rd 7y ago
      Ah sorry, my bad, I skipped over that. Here's an idea - you could start a "fundraising" of sorts and if you get enough you could purchase a developer profile to publish to TestFlight.
      - osy 7y ago
        You can’t purchase such a profile. Apple doesn’t ever give them out.
        lazerl0rd 7y ago
        I thought this would be part of their $99/year subscription, well that's unfortunate. Thanks again for your project.
      - JimDabell 7y ago
        The problem here is not that they can't obtain a development certificate. The problem is that you cannot use a development certificate to distribute an app on TestFlight or the App Store to other people. There are two types of certificate – development certificates, which allow get-task-allow for debugging purposes and can be installed directly to a device; and distribution certificates, which do not allow get-task-allow and can be distributed through ad-hoc means, Test Flight, or the App Store. If this app requires get-task-allow, then it needs to be signed with a development certificate to run. If it's signed with a development certificate, then it can't be distributed to other people.
  - jsjohnst 7y ago
    iSH works differently. It’s not running “Linux” and it isn’t virtualizing hardware either. Anything you run has to be compiled already and the syscalls are emulated, there is no Linux kernel in iSH.
- asveikau 7y ago
  Curious what you use that for. My previous exposure for "get task" on Darwin/XNU is it's useful for reading or writing the memory of another process and suspending or resuming its threads, as in writing a debugger.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    The app pretends to debug itself, which tricks the kernel into allowing it to flip the permissions of pages between write and execute. To do this it needs the get_task_allow entitlement.
    - asveikau 7y ago
      Ah ok. So everything with a JIT will need this. I think I might even have read that somewhere long ago. This is a weird thing by the way. It seems to me like you should be able to debug or do VM syscalls against yourself because there is no escalation of privilege. Debugging another process makes much more sense to block. But maybe my opinion is invalid because I also happen to think disallowing jit with kernel permissions is very silly. (Maybe dropping ability to do this in the style of openbsd's pledge(2) would be appropriate, but only for a process that really wants extra security.)
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        > So everything with a JIT will need this. Actual JITs (ones blessed by Apple, not hacks like these) possess the dynamic-codesigning entitlement, and can just make RWX pages. > But maybe my opinion is invalid because I also happen to think disallowing jit with kernel permissions is very silly. Your opinion isn't invalid, but it goes against Apple's security model of iOS (namely: apps should not be able to modify themselves).
        asveikau 7y ago
        > Your opinion isn't invalid, but it goes against Apple's security model of iOS (namely: apps should not be able to modify themselves). And my position is this is a silly approach, or, maybe is ok but should be opt-in, or perhaps opt-out with third parties being automatically trusted to decide they want to use JIT without hoops. W^X is good default policy but Apple's policy is unreasonable and paranoid.

jsjohnst 7y ago

First of all, huge TY! I used iBochs on a first gen iPad and successfully ran Linux, Windows 95, and DOS on it. I’ve tried a few times to modernize that code for current iOS releases, but was unsuccessful. I did spend a bunch of time back in the day building a nice UI for iBochs so would be game to help do that for UTM. My contact info is in my profile if you are still looking for folks!

osy 7y ago
Thanks! If you’re interested please fork the project on github and make a PR when you’re ready. I want this project eventually to be community run so I’m not going to be “in charge” of anything.

saagarjha 7y ago

How long did it take you to make this?

osy 7y ago
Most of the development was done on my free time in a span of three months. Then I got bored and didn’t touch it for half a year and decided to polish it up a little last week and release it.

nottorp 7y ago

Question then: why are you investing time in something that Apple will never allow in the app store? Isn't it better to spend your effort on a more open platform? Note: i use an iPhone and iPads. I do my hacking/customizing elsewhere.

_-___________-_ 7y ago
Because it's useful even if it's not allowed in the App Store? There's tons of useful open-source software for iOS which will never make it to the App Store.
- anticensor 7y ago
  This includes the real Firefox.
  - theshadowknows 7y ago
    Please explain...
    - anticensor 7y ago
      Using the Gecko/Servo like desktop Firefox, not WebKit like Safari.
      - theshadowknows 7y ago
        Ah I see. For a moment I thought you meant someone had made some side-loadable full Firefox and I was going to be so happy.
busymom0 7y ago
Another reason is that even though right now they don’t allow it, what if they do start allowing it in the future? Pythonista app is a perfect example of this. It was originally not allowed but they eventually changed their rules to start allowing it back in ios 11 I believe. Maybe the same would happen with this if this becomes decently useful. IPad is already going in a more mainstream direction.

AnyTimeTraveler 7y ago

I have a 4th generation iPad. Would it work on that as well? Since Apple dropped support for it, it's stuck with iOS 10 and effectively useless. I would love to run Linux on it...

saagarjha 7y ago
Unfortunately UTM requires iOS 11. Perhaps someone might be able to backport it?

VvR-Ox 7y ago

Thank you very much for sharing this with us. I am about to test it. I have already installed it successfully and it opens without crashing (iPad Air 2, iOS 13.3, unc0ver jailbreak) - so far so good ;-) I will report back when I tried to install Win XP/7 (I desperately want to play Age of Empires 1 while on vacation since I saw this awesome app :D).

VvR-Ox 7y ago
So here is my journey with UTM: 1. Install UTM - harder than I thought now because of Apple enforcing very strict app signing rules etc. (why can't they just let us run our own code without paying or hacking? Ò.ó) - jailbreak with checkra1n -> install AppCake -> trust certificates with help of "Apple Configurator" (device management was not in the iOS general settings until I accessed profile settings with the configurator) -> sign UTM with AppCake (Filza -> Open IPA with AppCake) 2. Setup VM with Windows XP - copied ISO (WinXP SP3) to iPad with VLC "Sharing via WiFi" (awesome tool!) - created a VM with a 5GB hdd and a CD/DVD with path set to the ISO - could boot from the ISO and start installation but it crashed after the reboot. I tried again and again by opening UTM again, opening the VM settings (not doing so would instantly crash UTM when I tried to start the VM again) - finally I realized assigning 1GB of RAM to the VM (iPad Air 2 has only 2GB total) was too much and I changed it to 512MB (default setting) which let me finish the installation of Win XP! :-D No I will try to install Age of Empires 1 and when I get hands on adapter + keyboard + mouse I will try those with UTM as well.
- VvR-Ox 7y ago
  Installing AoE worked but I am afraid I could not start it :-/ It demands graphics with directdraw and will not start. How did you get Halflife running?