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I am sometimes glad that Californians are around as a polity. They try the things the rest of us think are loony, but are motivated by strong ethical underpinni

by mrkstu 7y ago

I am sometimes glad that Californians are around as a polity. They try the things the rest of us think are loony, but are motivated by strong ethical underpinnings. Sometimes they fail badly and serve as a warning to the rest of us that 'here be dragons' and other times they unexpectedly succeed and the rest of us can learn that, in certain circumstances, living up to your beliefs with the collective wallet can work out positively, net-net.

fennecfoxen 7y ago
> Sometimes they fail badly and serve as a warning to the rest of us that 'here be dragons' You know, if you'd consider listening, ordinary economists could have also served as that warning in many cases — like, for instance, in the case of AB5 and its impact on freelance journalists... or the impact of not-building-housing on the housing crisis...
JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
Just because a bill is submitted doesn't mean it's not immediately dead on arrival. Some bills are submitted just so a politician can say "I submitted the bill, but it was <other party> that killed it".
- claydavisss 7y ago
  what "other party"? State Republicans don't have the votes to stop anything, they are virtually extinct. If a bill dies in Sacramento, it dies because (and only because) Democrats wanted it to die.
- chrisdhoover 7y ago
  There is only one party in CA
  - JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
    Not all Democrats within California Democratic party sit at the exact same point on the political spectrum. Some are more neoliberal & centrist, and others are more socialist Democrat. By submitting this bill, it could signal the expectation that centrist democrats need to move further left. Given CA is mostly a one-party state, it's more about intraparty influence over the party's platform, than it is about blaming the "other" party.
option 7y ago
- you’ve just described one of the fundamental US strengths. And it is not just CA - other states try different policies all the time. And the most successful ones are adapted by others. What we should do better as a country is propagating good ones and killing the bad ones faster
dinkydrew 7y ago
I don't understand your line of thinking. You consider taking money against the will of someone who worked for what they have, in order to give it to others, a "strong ethical underpinning"? That sounds like theft or robbery by proxy, like the reverse of Robin Hood; the King taking from the peasants in order to give it to the court subjects. That does not strike me as ethical at all, unless you are talking about a voluntary program where, e.g., you get to sign up to have, e.g., 2% extra tax take out that is then used to pay for things like UBI. Is that what you are talking about, a voluntary thing? I am all for a new form of government of voluntary "a la carte" democracy, where, e.g., if you want "free" healthcare, you can sign up to be taxed for it, or if you want "free" education, you can sign up to be taxed for that, or if you want to "help" the homeless (which I do) you can sign up to be taxed in order to "help" that too. By all means, you want to fund the CA UBI, you should demand to sign up for that, maybe through your employer or when you file your tax return every year. Anything but voluntary payment of taxes for anything outside of the core functions of government is actually the opposite of strong ethical underpinnings; it's objectively immensely immoral and unethical, no different than other forms of theft and slavery.
avocado4 7y ago
Can you give an example of a success story from the recent 5 years? I'm not talking about the Harvey Milk days of California.
- chrisdhoover 7y ago
  CA politics are bad. There has been a constant stream of poorly considered legislation over the past 10 years or so. I can think of only one move that brought a positive outcome. Newsome, the current governor was once the mayor of Frisco. He was an asshole then as he is now. He slept with his best friends wife. Even so against the council of many, he started marrying gays in city hall. This singular action started a chain reaction that eventually changed US law and also attitudes. I have to give the little shit his due.
- abeppu 7y ago
  Maybe it's too early to say it's a success story, but how about that College Promise program giving new students 2 years tuition-free at community colleges? It's a far cry from when the UCs were tuition-free, but it's something.
chrisdhoover 7y ago
It’s a stretch to characterize the state politics as having strong ethics, CA is a corrupt place.
gnusty_gnurc 7y ago
This is the Brandeisian concept of "laboratories of democracy" - a facet of federalism.

by mrkstu 7y ago

fennecfoxen 7y ago

> Sometimes they fail badly and serve as a warning to the rest of us that 'here be dragons' You know, if you'd consider listening, ordinary economists could have also served as that warning in many cases — like, for instance, in the case of AB5 and its impact on freelance journalists... or the impact of not-building-housing on the housing crisis...

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago

Just because a bill is submitted doesn't mean it's not immediately dead on arrival. Some bills are submitted just so a politician can say "I submitted the bill, but it was <other party> that killed it".

claydavisss 7y ago
what "other party"? State Republicans don't have the votes to stop anything, they are virtually extinct. If a bill dies in Sacramento, it dies because (and only because) Democrats wanted it to die.
chrisdhoover 7y ago
There is only one party in CA
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
  Not all Democrats within California Democratic party sit at the exact same point on the political spectrum. Some are more neoliberal & centrist, and others are more socialist Democrat. By submitting this bill, it could signal the expectation that centrist democrats need to move further left. Given CA is mostly a one-party state, it's more about intraparty influence over the party's platform, than it is about blaming the "other" party.

option 7y ago

- you’ve just described one of the fundamental US strengths. And it is not just CA - other states try different policies all the time. And the most successful ones are adapted by others. What we should do better as a country is propagating good ones and killing the bad ones faster

dinkydrew 7y ago

I don't understand your line of thinking. You consider taking money against the will of someone who worked for what they have, in order to give it to others, a "strong ethical underpinning"? That sounds like theft or robbery by proxy, like the reverse of Robin Hood; the King taking from the peasants in order to give it to the court subjects. That does not strike me as ethical at all, unless you are talking about a voluntary program where, e.g., you get to sign up to have, e.g., 2% extra tax take out that is then used to pay for things like UBI. Is that what you are talking about, a voluntary thing? I am all for a new form of government of voluntary "a la carte" democracy, where, e.g., if you want "free" healthcare, you can sign up to be taxed for it, or if you want "free" education, you can sign up to be taxed for that, or if you want to "help" the homeless (which I do) you can sign up to be taxed in order to "help" that too. By all means, you want to fund the CA UBI, you should demand to sign up for that, maybe through your employer or when you file your tax return every year. Anything but voluntary payment of taxes for anything outside of the core functions of government is actually the opposite of strong ethical underpinnings; it's objectively immensely immoral and unethical, no different than other forms of theft and slavery.

avocado4 7y ago

Can you give an example of a success story from the recent 5 years? I'm not talking about the Harvey Milk days of California.

chrisdhoover 7y ago
CA politics are bad. There has been a constant stream of poorly considered legislation over the past 10 years or so. I can think of only one move that brought a positive outcome. Newsome, the current governor was once the mayor of Frisco. He was an asshole then as he is now. He slept with his best friends wife. Even so against the council of many, he started marrying gays in city hall. This singular action started a chain reaction that eventually changed US law and also attitudes. I have to give the little shit his due.
abeppu 7y ago
Maybe it's too early to say it's a success story, but how about that College Promise program giving new students 2 years tuition-free at community colleges? It's a far cry from when the UCs were tuition-free, but it's something.

chrisdhoover 7y ago

It’s a stretch to characterize the state politics as having strong ethics, CA is a corrupt place.

gnusty_gnurc 7y ago

This is the Brandeisian concept of "laboratories of democracy" - a facet of federalism.