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I'm from Germany and none of my friends works 40h anymore. They're all down to 50-80% This is even regulated by the law, your employer has to allow you to red

by k__ 7y ago

I'm from Germany and none of my friends works 40h anymore. They're all down to 50-80% This is even regulated by the law, your employer has to allow you to reduce your work time, only in some extreme cases they can deny it. Works like a charm.

frockington1 7y ago
I like the idea of working less, but it's going to be hard to use Germany as a poster child. The German economy hasn't been doing to great recently. In my opinion it's largely due to carrying lagging EU economies, but it will be hard to use a struggling economy as a positive indicator Germany: https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-growth https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-growth US: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth
- standardUser 7y ago
  The German standard of living is exceptional. Abstract worries about "the economy not doing too well" don't really matter until the standard of living declines in some meaningful way for a lot of people. Owners demand perpetual growth. People demand comfortable lives and occasional vacations. Most achieve that in Germany. There probably isn't a single better "poster child" of a prosperous society with anywhere near the same population.
  - frockington1 7y ago
    I'd rather be an owner in America with perpetual growth. Difference of culture I guess.
    - siquick 7y ago
      That growth only really benefits a tiny minority of the country though. There are far more people in a precarious position in the US than in Germany
- devmunchies 7y ago
  GDP growth is not indicative of a higher standard of living. It just means more things are part of the economy. If I grow my own food and play board games with my family, it doesn't boost the GDP. However, if I go to MacDonald's and then send my kids to daycare while I go to the movies (3 economic transactions), it increases the GDP since those services are now commoditized. Increasing the GDP might boost the standard of living in really poor countries, but there's a healthy ceiling until it becomes growth for the sake of growth.
  - jariel 7y ago
    "GDP growth is not indicative of a higher standard of living. " Whoa there, GDP is absolutely correlated to the standard of living, this is not contentious. That it's not a direct measure, true, but it's definitely 'a' measure. Moreover, growth or contraction in per-capita GDP in a nation is definitely correlated with increasing/reduced economic prosperity even in 'rich' countries. Yes, many things are 'not measured' particularly leisure, but most things of material value are. The GDP is one of the 'least bad' measures we have.
    - devmunchies 7y ago
      Our comments aren’t conflicting. I was mostly saying that at some point the continued growth of the GDP means turning every aspect of human interaction into an economic interaction, where everything becomes commoditized. Home cooked meals or housing my aging mother aren’t impactful on the GDP like supporting the restaurant and retirement home industries, but I’d say it’s a healthier way of life. A sleepy town may not be booming but I’d prefer it to a high GDP output city.
      - jariel 7y ago
        Yes, I see what you are saying, but those 'high GDP output zones' are where a ton of the surpluses get created. A million 'happy little towns' won't create a lot of the very specific things we need and depend on for our standard of living to be high. We depend very heavily on 'exceptional organizations' and those things involve inherently greater dedication than many other jobs. For example, I don't think that Tesla would ever happen were it not for the fairly intense work of the leadership there, and they are 'forcing' the market on electric cars. A lot of things behind the scenes like this. Admittedly, on the other hand, a lot of jobs are pushing paper ...
- econcon 7y ago
  >The German economy hasn't been doing to great recently. In my opinion it's largely due to carrying lagging EU economies, but it will be hard to use a struggling economy as a positive indicator Without Germany starting EU and issuing checks to other EU countries, there will be very small market for German companies. If you compare the quality of life metric, Germany does much better than any other EU country Here you can see how German industries has survived all of this time: https://www.conradbastable.com/essays/the-germany-shock-the-largest-economy-nobody-understands https://www.conradbastable.com/essays/the-germany-shock-the-... Germany has managed to effectively get all benefits of Imperialism without its downsides. And china is trying to do this through currency manipulation and belt and reads policy. Still getting much hate for that while Germany barely got any hate.
fogetti 7y ago
I am curious. Where do they work? What do they do?
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  My family is in Germany and a lot of them also work shorter hours. This works for all kind of jobs including upper management and specialist jobs . It’s a misconception that some jobs require 40+ hour work weeks. When the 40 hour workweek was introduced a lot of people also thought that the economy would crash and it worked out just fine.
- k__ 7y ago
  Accountant, marketeer, developer, nurse, optometrist, barkeeper
kuu 7y ago
Do you also get paid a 50-80%?
- zhdc1 7y ago
  Salary is set at a 100% baseline, but your contract is fixed at a certain percentage (usually 80% or 60%) and your salary and working hours are adjusted accordingly. Employees are generally not expected to work beyond that amount, and when they do, it's with the understanding that they can go around and reduce their working hours the following week (or whenever works for them & their manager) to cover the delta.
- k__ 7y ago
  Yes, but since the taxes aren't linear (less pay equals less tax %) you usually end up with more money per hour. Some of my friends even got an indirect raise out of it, because employers couldn't pay more, so they worked less for the same pay.
sib 7y ago
Is there an English-language description of this law anywhere online? I couldn't find it and would love to learn more. Thanks!
- k__ 7y ago
  https://www.mayr-arbeitsrecht.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Part-Time-and-Limited-Term-Employment-Act.pdf https://www.mayr-arbeitsrecht.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/...
  - sib 7y ago
    Thank you! Very interesting. I've been having conversations with friends about the societal desirability of - and potentially need for - this sort of working arrangement over the past couple of years. I personally would love to be able to take a 10-20% reduction in annual work time.
systemtest 7y ago
What about your pension or your company car? If you work an extra day in the week 100% of that money can go straight to your pension, giving you 10 years of early retirement.
- k__ 7y ago
  Sure. Either you get free time when you're young or you have to work longer.
IkmoIkmo 7y ago
Indeed, my employer (Netherlands) is also quite flexible here. Problem is that it almost always comes at the cost of promotions. I've never seen someone who works parttime get promoted. Everyone who gets promoted works full-time. In other words, going part-time is a commitment to the job-level you're in, in my experience. It signals to management you're good, reliable, ready to stay in that position perpetually and do a decent job, but not up for anything ambitious. Whether this is true is a different story, but it's how in my experience it gets interpreted. That works fine if you're a 45 year old parent making 2x the median wage in a mid-level manager position working 36 hours (one week 5 days one week 4 days), 32 hours (4 days a week) etc, because your salary doesn't need to grow, plus even at parttime its sufficient. But at the start of your career making 70% of the median wage, going parttime both hurts career growth and isn't always financially feasible.

by k__ 7y ago

frockington1 7y ago

I like the idea of working less, but it's going to be hard to use Germany as a poster child. The German economy hasn't been doing to great recently. In my opinion it's largely due to carrying lagging EU economies, but it will be hard to use a struggling economy as a positive indicator Germany: https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-growth https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-growth US: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth

standardUser 7y ago
The German standard of living is exceptional. Abstract worries about "the economy not doing too well" don't really matter until the standard of living declines in some meaningful way for a lot of people. Owners demand perpetual growth. People demand comfortable lives and occasional vacations. Most achieve that in Germany. There probably isn't a single better "poster child" of a prosperous society with anywhere near the same population.
- frockington1 7y ago
  I'd rather be an owner in America with perpetual growth. Difference of culture I guess.
  - siquick 7y ago
    That growth only really benefits a tiny minority of the country though. There are far more people in a precarious position in the US than in Germany
devmunchies 7y ago
GDP growth is not indicative of a higher standard of living. It just means more things are part of the economy. If I grow my own food and play board games with my family, it doesn't boost the GDP. However, if I go to MacDonald's and then send my kids to daycare while I go to the movies (3 economic transactions), it increases the GDP since those services are now commoditized. Increasing the GDP might boost the standard of living in really poor countries, but there's a healthy ceiling until it becomes growth for the sake of growth.
- jariel 7y ago
  "GDP growth is not indicative of a higher standard of living. " Whoa there, GDP is absolutely correlated to the standard of living, this is not contentious. That it's not a direct measure, true, but it's definitely 'a' measure. Moreover, growth or contraction in per-capita GDP in a nation is definitely correlated with increasing/reduced economic prosperity even in 'rich' countries. Yes, many things are 'not measured' particularly leisure, but most things of material value are. The GDP is one of the 'least bad' measures we have.
  - devmunchies 7y ago
    Our comments aren’t conflicting. I was mostly saying that at some point the continued growth of the GDP means turning every aspect of human interaction into an economic interaction, where everything becomes commoditized. Home cooked meals or housing my aging mother aren’t impactful on the GDP like supporting the restaurant and retirement home industries, but I’d say it’s a healthier way of life. A sleepy town may not be booming but I’d prefer it to a high GDP output city.
    - jariel 7y ago
      Yes, I see what you are saying, but those 'high GDP output zones' are where a ton of the surpluses get created. A million 'happy little towns' won't create a lot of the very specific things we need and depend on for our standard of living to be high. We depend very heavily on 'exceptional organizations' and those things involve inherently greater dedication than many other jobs. For example, I don't think that Tesla would ever happen were it not for the fairly intense work of the leadership there, and they are 'forcing' the market on electric cars. A lot of things behind the scenes like this. Admittedly, on the other hand, a lot of jobs are pushing paper ...
econcon 7y ago
>The German economy hasn't been doing to great recently. In my opinion it's largely due to carrying lagging EU economies, but it will be hard to use a struggling economy as a positive indicator Without Germany starting EU and issuing checks to other EU countries, there will be very small market for German companies. If you compare the quality of life metric, Germany does much better than any other EU country Here you can see how German industries has survived all of this time: https://www.conradbastable.com/essays/the-germany-shock-the-largest-economy-nobody-understands https://www.conradbastable.com/essays/the-germany-shock-the-... Germany has managed to effectively get all benefits of Imperialism without its downsides. And china is trying to do this through currency manipulation and belt and reads policy. Still getting much hate for that while Germany barely got any hate.

fogetti 7y ago

I am curious. Where do they work? What do they do?

Ididntdothis 7y ago
My family is in Germany and a lot of them also work shorter hours. This works for all kind of jobs including upper management and specialist jobs . It’s a misconception that some jobs require 40+ hour work weeks. When the 40 hour workweek was introduced a lot of people also thought that the economy would crash and it worked out just fine.
k__ 7y ago
Accountant, marketeer, developer, nurse, optometrist, barkeeper

kuu 7y ago

Do you also get paid a 50-80%?

zhdc1 7y ago
Salary is set at a 100% baseline, but your contract is fixed at a certain percentage (usually 80% or 60%) and your salary and working hours are adjusted accordingly. Employees are generally not expected to work beyond that amount, and when they do, it's with the understanding that they can go around and reduce their working hours the following week (or whenever works for them & their manager) to cover the delta.
k__ 7y ago
Yes, but since the taxes aren't linear (less pay equals less tax %) you usually end up with more money per hour. Some of my friends even got an indirect raise out of it, because employers couldn't pay more, so they worked less for the same pay.

sib 7y ago

Is there an English-language description of this law anywhere online? I couldn't find it and would love to learn more. Thanks!

k__ 7y ago
https://www.mayr-arbeitsrecht.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Part-Time-and-Limited-Term-Employment-Act.pdf https://www.mayr-arbeitsrecht.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/...
- sib 7y ago
  Thank you! Very interesting. I've been having conversations with friends about the societal desirability of - and potentially need for - this sort of working arrangement over the past couple of years. I personally would love to be able to take a 10-20% reduction in annual work time.

systemtest 7y ago

What about your pension or your company car? If you work an extra day in the week 100% of that money can go straight to your pension, giving you 10 years of early retirement.

k__ 7y ago
Sure. Either you get free time when you're young or you have to work longer.

IkmoIkmo 7y ago

Indeed, my employer (Netherlands) is also quite flexible here. Problem is that it almost always comes at the cost of promotions. I've never seen someone who works parttime get promoted. Everyone who gets promoted works full-time. In other words, going part-time is a commitment to the job-level you're in, in my experience. It signals to management you're good, reliable, ready to stay in that position perpetually and do a decent job, but not up for anything ambitious. Whether this is true is a different story, but it's how in my experience it gets interpreted. That works fine if you're a 45 year old parent making 2x the median wage in a mid-level manager position working 36 hours (one week 5 days one week 4 days), 32 hours (4 days a week) etc, because your salary doesn't need to grow, plus even at parttime its sufficient. But at the start of your career making 70% of the median wage, going parttime both hurts career growth and isn't always financially feasible.