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So there was a software project that I wanted to ask some questions about on their IRC. So I clicked a link on their GitHub page for some online IRC client. I

by Jonnax 7y ago

So there was a software project that I wanted to ask some questions about on their IRC. So I clicked a link on their GitHub page for some online IRC client. I had a conversation it was great. Except for the part where I wanted to paste some code and it didn't format. And then I was recommended to use pastebin and paste a link. Then I went away for a bit. Came back later and my computer had rebooted while in standby. (It's an old laptop and is a bit flaky with resume from standby) I returned and click the link for the IRC chat. And I couldn't see the previous messages. And they had a link to a log but it wasn't working. And apparently the server doesn't log by default. Look, no offence to IRC. But this is some crazy bullshit. Like Discord, Slack, Gitter, Teams. Whatever. Isn't going have this issue. At the end of the day people want to communicate and get their stuff done. For a free software project, sure, using opensource tools is a great idea. But sometimes faffing around with none core things just wastes everyone's time. Especially with they could instead be working on features and bug fixes.

dmead 7y ago
IRC is just a relay. it's not storage and never will be.
- Jonnax 7y ago
  I know. I've used mIRC lots 10+ years ago. But the expectations for chat today has changed a lot
- zzo38computer 7y ago
  A IRC server can log. I have once programmed a IRC server to do this for a predefined set of channels, and the MOTD mentions where to find the logs. (This way, everyone is aware of the logs.) Whether or not it logs has nothing to do with the protocol; it can be a feature of the implementation.
  - hprotagonist 7y ago
    and most channels have a valid and longstanding rule against public logs. because if you were raised as i was in the internet of the mid-90s, logs and real names are weapons, and we don’t do that to our friends.
    - nwsm 7y ago
      Anyone reading can "log" the messages. If anything, a server that always logs just forces you to understand that your messages were never protected.
      - hprotagonist 7y ago
        Yes, of course, and i maintain private logs for my reference. Public logs are another matter.
        dependenttypes 7y ago
        Anyone who has private logs can leak them, and nobody will know who did the leak if care is taken.
    - skinnymuch 7y ago
      But anyone can log the messages and at any point they can come out for a number of reasons. None of them have to be negative or evil. Stuff happens. I find in many ways it’s worse to hand wave and say there’s a policy against something where no one can actually control that policy. Also, many people don’t understand that things can still be logged or tracked. So the policy example given can give many people false thoughts. An example is Zoom video chats. It has a record feature. The record feature once on turns on shows a blinking recording icon. In one instance people got a bit upset about it. They were even more surprised and couldn’t completely grok that any one at any time can screen record their own desktops without any one ever being notified or knowing. So Zoom letting you know is actually better.
- drunken-serval 7y ago
  And since IRC was made, storing message history has become an expected feature for chat applications.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 7y ago
    That's an expected feature that only makes sense if you're part of a community that expects to share all communication. On the Ardour's project's main IRC channel, it makes absolutely zero sense for the vast majority of people in the channel to be able to drop off the channel for 2 days, and come back and read everything they missed. The social expectations and norms there don't make this a sensible or reasonable expectation. Contrast with "modern chat systems" ... in most of their uses, this is an entirely reasonable expectation because you are a _member_ of the group, and simply being offline isn't a reason for you to miss messages. In our case (Ardour), we have private IRC channels where this sort of expectation is more reasonable, and we run a Quassel server to provide "always-on" messaging for people who are "members" (i.e. people for whom it's sensible to expect that they never miss messages).
    - jamesgeck0 7y ago
      There's no technical reason a browser-based IRC client couldn't keep rotating logs.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 7y ago
        where would they be kept? it wouldn't be the browser-based client that wrote and managed the log, surely, but (as with quassel), some server (e.g. the thing the browser talks to). and sure, someone could write a quassel-based in-browser IRC client. I don't believe it has been done thus far. That fact in and of itself points in the direction that others have mentioned: public logs of IRC channels are not part of the culture of IRC.
        jamesgeck0 7y ago
        A browser-based client could persist the log in localStorage for basic history. It wouldn't capture conversation when you're offline, and it wouldn't store years of history or anything, but (1) it would solve the problem where the user refreshes the page and loses all their channel history and (2) nobody who is using such a web IRC client has a bouncer anyway.
PaulDavisThe1st 7y ago
If you use a non-browser IRC client, you wouldn't have faced this issue. If you had used a persistent IRC system (like quassel) then you'd even be "online" permanently, whether or not you reader-client was running. IRC has different semantics and goals than "modern" chat/msg systems. Even though they overlap quite a lot, it's a mistake to think that one is a substitute for the other.
- Kuinox 7y ago
  This is still friction. If it need to be explained, than you UX is not that good.
  - knolax 7y ago
    Is knowledge that a low res picture of a floppy disk means "save" inborn a priori? All software needs some degree of explanation. Discord only needs less explanation because it's more similar to other popular software so your metric is less a measure of UX but one of conformity.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 7y ago
    This is such a tediously computer-centric vision. There are hundreds of tools in the world that are used every day that have "friction" and need to be "explained". Nobody complains that their UX is not that good, because they understand that certain tasks require some level (possibly mastery, possibly just a basic understanding) of the tools and processes. As noted by another commenter, the fact that you know how "most modern chat/msg apps work" doesn't mean that they all have good UX - it means that they all have the same UX, and you've already learned it.
    - johnday 7y ago
      > This is such a tediously computer-centric vision. There are hundreds of tools in the world that are used every day that have "friction" and need to be "explained". I would be very interested to hear of some such tools?
iamnothere 7y ago
Matrix is a more modern, open source alternative that doesn't hand over your data to a company to be monetized. Matrix channels can even be bridged with IRC using bots, allowing people to use their tool of preference.
- Hawxy 7y ago
  > that doesn't hand over your data to a company to be monetized Slack, Discord & Gitter don't monetize data either, so that's a pretty weak argument.

by Jonnax 7y ago

dmead 7y ago

IRC is just a relay. it's not storage and never will be.

Jonnax 7y ago
I know. I've used mIRC lots 10+ years ago. But the expectations for chat today has changed a lot
zzo38computer 7y ago
A IRC server can log. I have once programmed a IRC server to do this for a predefined set of channels, and the MOTD mentions where to find the logs. (This way, everyone is aware of the logs.) Whether or not it logs has nothing to do with the protocol; it can be a feature of the implementation.
- hprotagonist 7y ago
  and most channels have a valid and longstanding rule against public logs. because if you were raised as i was in the internet of the mid-90s, logs and real names are weapons, and we don’t do that to our friends.
  - nwsm 7y ago
    Anyone reading can "log" the messages. If anything, a server that always logs just forces you to understand that your messages were never protected.
    - hprotagonist 7y ago
      Yes, of course, and i maintain private logs for my reference. Public logs are another matter.
      - dependenttypes 7y ago
        Anyone who has private logs can leak them, and nobody will know who did the leak if care is taken.
  - skinnymuch 7y ago
    But anyone can log the messages and at any point they can come out for a number of reasons. None of them have to be negative or evil. Stuff happens. I find in many ways it’s worse to hand wave and say there’s a policy against something where no one can actually control that policy. Also, many people don’t understand that things can still be logged or tracked. So the policy example given can give many people false thoughts. An example is Zoom video chats. It has a record feature. The record feature once on turns on shows a blinking recording icon. In one instance people got a bit upset about it. They were even more surprised and couldn’t completely grok that any one at any time can screen record their own desktops without any one ever being notified or knowing. So Zoom letting you know is actually better.
drunken-serval 7y ago
And since IRC was made, storing message history has become an expected feature for chat applications.
- PaulDavisThe1st 7y ago
  That's an expected feature that only makes sense if you're part of a community that expects to share all communication. On the Ardour's project's main IRC channel, it makes absolutely zero sense for the vast majority of people in the channel to be able to drop off the channel for 2 days, and come back and read everything they missed. The social expectations and norms there don't make this a sensible or reasonable expectation. Contrast with "modern chat systems" ... in most of their uses, this is an entirely reasonable expectation because you are a _member_ of the group, and simply being offline isn't a reason for you to miss messages. In our case (Ardour), we have private IRC channels where this sort of expectation is more reasonable, and we run a Quassel server to provide "always-on" messaging for people who are "members" (i.e. people for whom it's sensible to expect that they never miss messages).
  - jamesgeck0 7y ago
    There's no technical reason a browser-based IRC client couldn't keep rotating logs.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 7y ago
      where would they be kept? it wouldn't be the browser-based client that wrote and managed the log, surely, but (as with quassel), some server (e.g. the thing the browser talks to). and sure, someone could write a quassel-based in-browser IRC client. I don't believe it has been done thus far. That fact in and of itself points in the direction that others have mentioned: public logs of IRC channels are not part of the culture of IRC.
      - jamesgeck0 7y ago
        A browser-based client could persist the log in localStorage for basic history. It wouldn't capture conversation when you're offline, and it wouldn't store years of history or anything, but (1) it would solve the problem where the user refreshes the page and loses all their channel history and (2) nobody who is using such a web IRC client has a bouncer anyway.

PaulDavisThe1st 7y ago

If you use a non-browser IRC client, you wouldn't have faced this issue. If you had used a persistent IRC system (like quassel) then you'd even be "online" permanently, whether or not you reader-client was running. IRC has different semantics and goals than "modern" chat/msg systems. Even though they overlap quite a lot, it's a mistake to think that one is a substitute for the other.

Kuinox 7y ago
This is still friction. If it need to be explained, than you UX is not that good.
- knolax 7y ago
  Is knowledge that a low res picture of a floppy disk means "save" inborn a priori? All software needs some degree of explanation. Discord only needs less explanation because it's more similar to other popular software so your metric is less a measure of UX but one of conformity.
- PaulDavisThe1st 7y ago
  This is such a tediously computer-centric vision. There are hundreds of tools in the world that are used every day that have "friction" and need to be "explained". Nobody complains that their UX is not that good, because they understand that certain tasks require some level (possibly mastery, possibly just a basic understanding) of the tools and processes. As noted by another commenter, the fact that you know how "most modern chat/msg apps work" doesn't mean that they all have good UX - it means that they all have the same UX, and you've already learned it.
  - johnday 7y ago
    > This is such a tediously computer-centric vision. There are hundreds of tools in the world that are used every day that have "friction" and need to be "explained". I would be very interested to hear of some such tools?

iamnothere 7y ago

Matrix is a more modern, open source alternative that doesn't hand over your data to a company to be monetized. Matrix channels can even be bridged with IRC using bots, allowing people to use their tool of preference.

Hawxy 7y ago
> that doesn't hand over your data to a company to be monetized Slack, Discord & Gitter don't monetize data either, so that's a pretty weak argument.