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> making authoritarian statements like "it is settled" If you are allowed to have and share your opinion that it's not settled science, would you be willing to

by jlebar 7y ago

> making authoritarian statements like "it is settled" If you are allowed to have and share your opinion that it's not settled science, would you be willing to elaborate on how it is "authoritarianism" for a scientist to share their opinion that it is? > These bots being more proof of the case With tweets like "Get lost, Greta"?

kls 7y ago
They come from a position of trusted authority. I am just some hack on the internet. It is not settled, it may be settled that the world is warming, it may be even settled that we are contributing a significant potion of it but the impacts are not settled and there is intentional bad science putting the blame of climate change to deflect it from real environmental poisoning. Claiming it's settled yields victory to said bad science as they get to parrot that it is settled and no more action is needed.
- jlebar 7y ago
  Genuinely trying to understand your position here: It's "authoritarian" for a scientist to claim, based on their good faith expert opinion, that a particular scientific question is "more or less settled" if...you disagree with their assessment? Surely that's not what you believe?
  - kls 7y ago
    They are an authority, Saying it is settled tried to end the debate in the laymen eyes. OK maybe I can draw an analogy maybe it will just be more confusing but I will try. I see it as akin to a police officer telling you, you are under arrest. Where I am just screaming citizens arrest at you. In the one case you stop what you are doing, and don't make any sudden moves it's the end of the conversation you are under arrest by the authorities. In the other case you are just looking at me thinking what the hell is this crazy person screaming citizens arrest and expecting me to freeze. In the case of the cop, I expect him to not go around telling people they are under arrest unless the are certain the person needs to be arrested. They have a moral duty to not try to arrest innocent people. They come from a position of authority. Scientist are like this their words hold more weight, I understand that it can be aggravating to believe something and just want to shut down the conversation but that is not beneficial.
    - jlebar 7y ago
      > They are an authority, Saying it is settled tried to end the debate in the laymen eyes. Granted. And we further assume this scientist has a bona fide good faith expert belief that it is in fact, settled science. Is your position that a scientist in this position should never use their authority to say "X is settled science"? Like, suppose I'm a physicist, and I say, "general relativity is more or less settled". Is that wrong somehow? If that's not wrong, could you help me understand the difference between the two situations? Is the difference simply, you agree with one scientist and disagree with the other? Surely that can't be our moral standard; for instance, lots of people believe that the earth is flat, and so presumably also would reject general relativity. The physicist could reasonably be accused of using their authority to try to shut down a debate over whether the earth is round. Is that wrong?
      - kls 7y ago
        Honestly I don't think they should ever say it, had we said that Newton's Laws where settled, I mean they are laws after all, we may not have general relativity. I don't think science is ever settled and if we find a unified theory it may bend relativity to the point that relativity bent Newton's laws. You could certainly say that Newton's Laws where settled, you could certainly say that relativity is settled but it creates an undercurrent that there is no stone left to un-turned. To the laymen it turns off a switch in their mind and they don't really want to process anymore information. I experience it all the time when I talk about the reefs dying, those that have settled on climate change is the reason will not listen to the fact that it is Nitrogen not ocean temperatures killing the reefs. Saying it is settled flips the off switch and people decide one way or the other, not processing new information.
        fzeroracer 7y ago
        So would you say that if a physicist said that gravity is a settled matter and absolutely exists, you would similarly call them an authoritarian abusing their position? Do we have an obligation to engage non-experts in debate when they claim that gravity isn't actually real?

by jlebar 7y ago

kls 7y ago

They come from a position of trusted authority. I am just some hack on the internet. It is not settled, it may be settled that the world is warming, it may be even settled that we are contributing a significant potion of it but the impacts are not settled and there is intentional bad science putting the blame of climate change to deflect it from real environmental poisoning. Claiming it's settled yields victory to said bad science as they get to parrot that it is settled and no more action is needed.

jlebar 7y ago
Genuinely trying to understand your position here: It's "authoritarian" for a scientist to claim, based on their good faith expert opinion, that a particular scientific question is "more or less settled" if...you disagree with their assessment? Surely that's not what you believe?
- kls 7y ago
  They are an authority, Saying it is settled tried to end the debate in the laymen eyes. OK maybe I can draw an analogy maybe it will just be more confusing but I will try. I see it as akin to a police officer telling you, you are under arrest. Where I am just screaming citizens arrest at you. In the one case you stop what you are doing, and don't make any sudden moves it's the end of the conversation you are under arrest by the authorities. In the other case you are just looking at me thinking what the hell is this crazy person screaming citizens arrest and expecting me to freeze. In the case of the cop, I expect him to not go around telling people they are under arrest unless the are certain the person needs to be arrested. They have a moral duty to not try to arrest innocent people. They come from a position of authority. Scientist are like this their words hold more weight, I understand that it can be aggravating to believe something and just want to shut down the conversation but that is not beneficial.
  - jlebar 7y ago
    > They are an authority, Saying it is settled tried to end the debate in the laymen eyes. Granted. And we further assume this scientist has a bona fide good faith expert belief that it is in fact, settled science. Is your position that a scientist in this position should never use their authority to say "X is settled science"? Like, suppose I'm a physicist, and I say, "general relativity is more or less settled". Is that wrong somehow? If that's not wrong, could you help me understand the difference between the two situations? Is the difference simply, you agree with one scientist and disagree with the other? Surely that can't be our moral standard; for instance, lots of people believe that the earth is flat, and so presumably also would reject general relativity. The physicist could reasonably be accused of using their authority to try to shut down a debate over whether the earth is round. Is that wrong?
    - kls 7y ago
      Honestly I don't think they should ever say it, had we said that Newton's Laws where settled, I mean they are laws after all, we may not have general relativity. I don't think science is ever settled and if we find a unified theory it may bend relativity to the point that relativity bent Newton's laws. You could certainly say that Newton's Laws where settled, you could certainly say that relativity is settled but it creates an undercurrent that there is no stone left to un-turned. To the laymen it turns off a switch in their mind and they don't really want to process anymore information. I experience it all the time when I talk about the reefs dying, those that have settled on climate change is the reason will not listen to the fact that it is Nitrogen not ocean temperatures killing the reefs. Saying it is settled flips the off switch and people decide one way or the other, not processing new information.
      - fzeroracer 7y ago
        So would you say that if a physicist said that gravity is a settled matter and absolutely exists, you would similarly call them an authoritarian abusing their position? Do we have an obligation to engage non-experts in debate when they claim that gravity isn't actually real?