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My understanding of the situation is that German and French banks flooded Greece with easy credit. And as it always happens under such circumstances people/cor

by sykick 7y ago

My understanding of the situation is that German and French banks flooded Greece with easy credit. And as it always happens under such circumstances people/corporations/governments borrowed heavily and when the crisis hit in 2009 they couldn’t repay. All of the so called bailouts have been aimed at making sure French and German banks didn’t suffer and the ones who did suffer have been the Greek people with the exception of the ruling class. Loans are a two party relationship and people tend to view the borrower more harshly than the lender. Lenders tend to get bailed out and somehow aren’t viewed negatively for their profligate lending. Why is it only the borrowers that suffer?

arethuza 7y ago
Varoufakis also mentions in his books that German reparation payments to Greece after WW2 were conveniently cancelled by the Western allies when they needed (West) Germany onside to face the Soviets. https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/10/greece-to-renew-call-for-germany-to-pay-279-billion-in-wwii-reparations https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/10/greece-to-renew-call-for...
- iSnow 7y ago
  Pretty much any and all reparations were cancelled for Western Germany and today's Germany by continuation. It was a mix of "we need Germany now" and the less than stellar experiences with reparations after WW I.
  - Aeolos 7y ago
    Outside the reparations question, Germany forced Greece to provide loans during the '40s occupation. Those loans are not reparations, were never cancelled and, due to continuity of government, are still owed by Germany to Greece. Debts must be paid after all.
xkemp 7y ago
That's an extremely one-sided point-of-view. The net effect of the whole saga was Greece getting to spend a lot of money in the 90s and 2000s, and the stronger countries of the Eurogroup ending up paying for (at least part) of that. Focussing on these countries' motivation is somewhat useless speculation, and arguably unfair if you manage to twist it so far around the people paying end up as the bad guys, and the people spending as the victims. In any case: French and German banks could have absorbed a Greek default, although it would have been painful. Because these banks held only part of the debt[0], it would have always been cheaper to make them whole again and tell Greece to take a hike. Considering a decade has passed and some things happen, one might also want to reevaluate the motivations ascribed to, for example, Angela Merkel. Does she still strike people as incapable of aiming higher than just immediate parochial needs? [0]: around 30% IIRC, can't be bothered to look this stuff up again ten years later)
- sykick 7y ago
  My intention was to point out that lending is a two party relationship and both parties have responsibilities. The tendency in my experience in these discussions is to put too much blame on the borrower and too often put very little blame on the lender. The motivation of the German and French governments was that German and French banks not suffer. And of course the leaders of those countries cared more about their people than the people of Greece. This is natural and part of the psychology of being part of a nation. We ended up with things like: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-greece-warships-analysis/broke-buy-a-few-warships-france-tells-greece-idUSTRE62M1Q520100323 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-greece-warships-... At any rate, both parties are at fault and both parties ought to have suffered. From my perspective only one party suffered.
  - rumanator 7y ago
    > My intention was to point out that lending is a two party relationship and both parties have responsibilities. Greek lenders were forced to pardon half it's debt, which ultimately caused some banks to bankrupt. Enough with this tale of how Greek governments are victims for repeatedly requesting loans, and then falsify their accounting to keep requesting loans, and then hiring professional accounting teams to optimize their accounting forgery to keep receiving loans.
    - sykick 7y ago
      Yes, Greek lenders were so forced but not German and French lenders. German and French banks were knowledgeable about the deplorable state of Greek accounting and the stupidity/corruption of the Greek government. They had responsibilities. It's a two party interaction and both the lender and borrower need to be held responsible. Enough with this tale of how German and French banks are victims for repeatedly giving loans and looking the other way at the bad accounting!
      - rumanator 7y ago
        > Yes, Greek lenders were so forced but not German and French lenders. Somehow you misread what I said. "Greek lenders" means those who lent money to the Greek state. Those were European private banks, including French and German. Those banks were forced to bear the loss of half of Greece's sovereign debt in Greece's famous 2011 debt hair cut. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-banks/europes-banks-bleed-from-greek-debt-crisis-idUSTRE81M0LT20120223 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-banks/europes-bank... > Enough with this tale of how German and French banks are victims for repeatedly giving loans and looking the other way at the bad accounting! It's too late to act that ignorant, sykick. The truth is out for almost a decade, and you simply cannot turn a blind eye to the facts. Go browse Wikipedia's article on the subject to get an idea of how Greek governments created their whole mess and how Europe's economy and the EU were forced to bear the brunt of the economic and financial and political problem Greece's ruling regime created for their country.

by sykick 7y ago

arethuza 7y ago

Varoufakis also mentions in his books that German reparation payments to Greece after WW2 were conveniently cancelled by the Western allies when they needed (West) Germany onside to face the Soviets. https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/10/greece-to-renew-call-for-germany-to-pay-279-billion-in-wwii-reparations https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/10/greece-to-renew-call-for...

iSnow 7y ago
Pretty much any and all reparations were cancelled for Western Germany and today's Germany by continuation. It was a mix of "we need Germany now" and the less than stellar experiences with reparations after WW I.
- Aeolos 7y ago
  Outside the reparations question, Germany forced Greece to provide loans during the '40s occupation. Those loans are not reparations, were never cancelled and, due to continuity of government, are still owed by Germany to Greece. Debts must be paid after all.

xkemp 7y ago

That's an extremely one-sided point-of-view. The net effect of the whole saga was Greece getting to spend a lot of money in the 90s and 2000s, and the stronger countries of the Eurogroup ending up paying for (at least part) of that. Focussing on these countries' motivation is somewhat useless speculation, and arguably unfair if you manage to twist it so far around the people paying end up as the bad guys, and the people spending as the victims. In any case: French and German banks could have absorbed a Greek default, although it would have been painful. Because these banks held only part of the debt[0], it would have always been cheaper to make them whole again and tell Greece to take a hike. Considering a decade has passed and some things happen, one might also want to reevaluate the motivations ascribed to, for example, Angela Merkel. Does she still strike people as incapable of aiming higher than just immediate parochial needs? [0]: around 30% IIRC, can't be bothered to look this stuff up again ten years later)

sykick 7y ago
My intention was to point out that lending is a two party relationship and both parties have responsibilities. The tendency in my experience in these discussions is to put too much blame on the borrower and too often put very little blame on the lender. The motivation of the German and French governments was that German and French banks not suffer. And of course the leaders of those countries cared more about their people than the people of Greece. This is natural and part of the psychology of being part of a nation. We ended up with things like: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-greece-warships-analysis/broke-buy-a-few-warships-france-tells-greece-idUSTRE62M1Q520100323 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-greece-warships-... At any rate, both parties are at fault and both parties ought to have suffered. From my perspective only one party suffered.
- rumanator 7y ago
  > My intention was to point out that lending is a two party relationship and both parties have responsibilities. Greek lenders were forced to pardon half it's debt, which ultimately caused some banks to bankrupt. Enough with this tale of how Greek governments are victims for repeatedly requesting loans, and then falsify their accounting to keep requesting loans, and then hiring professional accounting teams to optimize their accounting forgery to keep receiving loans.
  - sykick 7y ago
    Yes, Greek lenders were so forced but not German and French lenders. German and French banks were knowledgeable about the deplorable state of Greek accounting and the stupidity/corruption of the Greek government. They had responsibilities. It's a two party interaction and both the lender and borrower need to be held responsible. Enough with this tale of how German and French banks are victims for repeatedly giving loans and looking the other way at the bad accounting!
    - rumanator 7y ago
      > Yes, Greek lenders were so forced but not German and French lenders. Somehow you misread what I said. "Greek lenders" means those who lent money to the Greek state. Those were European private banks, including French and German. Those banks were forced to bear the loss of half of Greece's sovereign debt in Greece's famous 2011 debt hair cut. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-banks/europes-banks-bleed-from-greek-debt-crisis-idUSTRE81M0LT20120223 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-banks/europes-bank... > Enough with this tale of how German and French banks are victims for repeatedly giving loans and looking the other way at the bad accounting! It's too late to act that ignorant, sykick. The truth is out for almost a decade, and you simply cannot turn a blind eye to the facts. Go browse Wikipedia's article on the subject to get an idea of how Greek governments created their whole mess and how Europe's economy and the EU were forced to bear the brunt of the economic and financial and political problem Greece's ruling regime created for their country.