4 ms·

The leftist solutions are to get rid of of the conditions entirely, and find non-means-tested ways to accomplish goals more universally. The advantage here is s

The leftist solutions are to get rid of of the conditions entirely, and find non-means-tested ways to accomplish goals more universally. The advantage here is significantly reduced administrative costs, freeing up time and energy of those in a tough situation on recovery rather then stress over beurocracy and limitations, and of course, people not viewing the people on the programs as morally deficient. Social security, fire departments, medicare, primary education etc are all available broadly, and are broadly liked by people. People using these government handouts aren't considered lesser for it.

smnrchrds 7y ago
I reminds me of that quip that if libraries didn't exist already and did not have a history millennia long, no government would create one today. Instead, they would create a means-tested tax credit for purchasing books.
- thu2111 7y ago
  Intriguing idea :) I'm not sure if you're speaking approving or not (or neither). It seems like a reasonable thing to do though. Amazon is bigger than any library, it avoids the use of physical space in city centres and the need to manage loan systems/handle stolen books. I think the difference between then and now is that IT happened, so it's much easier to do things like calculate complex per-item tax rates than it would once have been.
  - iainmerrick 7y ago
    I'm not sure if you're speaking approving or not It’s “not”
  - mech1234 7y ago
    I'm getting strange vibes for how people must be reacting to this. Your idea of a possible better world is so bad that you should feel bad! /s
    - thu2111 7y ago
      Haha yeah -4, that's pretty far out. Lots of people who hate tax credits out there! It's really hard to defend libraries though. They're not just an inefficient use of space. They're bad for the environment too, as people have to travel back and forth all the time to swap books, discover the book they want isn't returned yet, etc. They're often badly maintained. Their books get damaged, lost or stolen. Their selection is really, really limited. Buying a book online is a great replacement except for the buying part. For most people books aren't a big part of their expenditure. For people for whom it is it'd be reasonable to effectively give them the money back instead. Especially now the marginal cost of the "book" is near zero, like with software. If the admin systems were good enough you'd never have to think about it: it could be integrated with the booksellers checkout system so the cost is literally zero. Of course that's not how tax credits really work today, but it could be done that way.
      - heavyset_go 7y ago
        You're missing the forest for the trees. Libraries are more than just books, they're free spaces for all types of learning, collaboration and production. I work remotely, sometimes from a library. I can request a space to work with others, and even hold large seminars if I wanted. There are dozens of free programs for kids to meet and learn, and there are opportunities for for working adults and the elderly, as well. My local library will even do interview prep for those who want it, which includes mock interviews from people in industry who donate their time. There's also 3D printers there, too. Librarians are more than just people who can find books on shelves. They can help you research, and have access to a multitude of databases that you might not know about. As an example, I wanted to contact the owners of a business and had trouble finding that information. That info existed in a database I didn't know about, and a librarian helped me retrieve it.
        thu2111 7y ago
        Collaboration and production? I think your local libraries are very different to the sorts of libraries I used to use as a child. What you're describing there sounds more like a community centre of some sort. Libraries are traditionally silent for example. You don't collaborate in them or else you get shushed. You definitely don't run 3D printers in them! But I can see that if that's what you associate with modern libraries then replacing them with book purchase credits would seem a poor trade.
PaulHoule 7y ago
I dunno, wasn't it Milton Friedman who was promoting UBI during the Nixon administration? I've got this funny feeling that Congress likes legalistic solutions to problems because they are mostly lawyers. (All lawyers when it comes to Democrats) The pain of filling out paperwork for means testing seems less painful to them than it does to the general population. The 'swiss cheese' approach to social services is one of the major reasons why U.S. health care is so FUBAR and so hard to fix. Old people have Medicare and they vote -- they don't see there is a problem. Many people get insurance from their employer and might have no idea what their employer pays or how stressful it is for employers to negotiate benefits every year. Veterans have a program, there is Medicaid for really poor people, Medicaid expansion for somewhat poor people, Obamacare exchanges for people who are almost poor, etc. When you add it all up there is a small pool of people "left behind" and most of those people are transiently uninsured because they'll wind up in some covered category. Balance that against a larger population afraid of losing what they have, and you have gridlock.
- todd8 7y ago
  Milton Friedman did have a proposal for elimination of poverty in the 60’s, but it wasn’t UBI. It was a negative income tax for those below the poverty line [1]. To some extent we have that now in the earned income tax credit. [1] https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/negative-income-tax-explained https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/negative-incom...
- jchrisa 7y ago
  Maybe you are good at paperwork, but it’s worth remembering that even Google sometimes biffs a domain name renewal. Why put artificial hurdles in front of people who need help?
  - PaulHoule 7y ago
    If you want to remove those hurdles you might want to see some more diversity (e.g. not lawyers) in Congress.
    - 7y ago

smnrchrds 7y ago

I reminds me of that quip that if libraries didn't exist already and did not have a history millennia long, no government would create one today. Instead, they would create a means-tested tax credit for purchasing books.

thu2111 7y ago
Intriguing idea :) I'm not sure if you're speaking approving or not (or neither). It seems like a reasonable thing to do though. Amazon is bigger than any library, it avoids the use of physical space in city centres and the need to manage loan systems/handle stolen books. I think the difference between then and now is that IT happened, so it's much easier to do things like calculate complex per-item tax rates than it would once have been.
- iainmerrick 7y ago
  I'm not sure if you're speaking approving or not It’s “not”
- mech1234 7y ago
  I'm getting strange vibes for how people must be reacting to this. Your idea of a possible better world is so bad that you should feel bad! /s
  - thu2111 7y ago
    Haha yeah -4, that's pretty far out. Lots of people who hate tax credits out there! It's really hard to defend libraries though. They're not just an inefficient use of space. They're bad for the environment too, as people have to travel back and forth all the time to swap books, discover the book they want isn't returned yet, etc. They're often badly maintained. Their books get damaged, lost or stolen. Their selection is really, really limited. Buying a book online is a great replacement except for the buying part. For most people books aren't a big part of their expenditure. For people for whom it is it'd be reasonable to effectively give them the money back instead. Especially now the marginal cost of the "book" is near zero, like with software. If the admin systems were good enough you'd never have to think about it: it could be integrated with the booksellers checkout system so the cost is literally zero. Of course that's not how tax credits really work today, but it could be done that way.
    - heavyset_go 7y ago
      You're missing the forest for the trees. Libraries are more than just books, they're free spaces for all types of learning, collaboration and production. I work remotely, sometimes from a library. I can request a space to work with others, and even hold large seminars if I wanted. There are dozens of free programs for kids to meet and learn, and there are opportunities for for working adults and the elderly, as well. My local library will even do interview prep for those who want it, which includes mock interviews from people in industry who donate their time. There's also 3D printers there, too. Librarians are more than just people who can find books on shelves. They can help you research, and have access to a multitude of databases that you might not know about. As an example, I wanted to contact the owners of a business and had trouble finding that information. That info existed in a database I didn't know about, and a librarian helped me retrieve it.
      - thu2111 7y ago
        Collaboration and production? I think your local libraries are very different to the sorts of libraries I used to use as a child. What you're describing there sounds more like a community centre of some sort. Libraries are traditionally silent for example. You don't collaborate in them or else you get shushed. You definitely don't run 3D printers in them! But I can see that if that's what you associate with modern libraries then replacing them with book purchase credits would seem a poor trade.

PaulHoule 7y ago

I dunno, wasn't it Milton Friedman who was promoting UBI during the Nixon administration? I've got this funny feeling that Congress likes legalistic solutions to problems because they are mostly lawyers. (All lawyers when it comes to Democrats) The pain of filling out paperwork for means testing seems less painful to them than it does to the general population. The 'swiss cheese' approach to social services is one of the major reasons why U.S. health care is so FUBAR and so hard to fix. Old people have Medicare and they vote -- they don't see there is a problem. Many people get insurance from their employer and might have no idea what their employer pays or how stressful it is for employers to negotiate benefits every year. Veterans have a program, there is Medicaid for really poor people, Medicaid expansion for somewhat poor people, Obamacare exchanges for people who are almost poor, etc. When you add it all up there is a small pool of people "left behind" and most of those people are transiently uninsured because they'll wind up in some covered category. Balance that against a larger population afraid of losing what they have, and you have gridlock.

todd8 7y ago
Milton Friedman did have a proposal for elimination of poverty in the 60’s, but it wasn’t UBI. It was a negative income tax for those below the poverty line [1]. To some extent we have that now in the earned income tax credit. [1] https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/negative-income-tax-explained https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/negative-incom...
jchrisa 7y ago
Maybe you are good at paperwork, but it’s worth remembering that even Google sometimes biffs a domain name renewal. Why put artificial hurdles in front of people who need help?
- PaulHoule 7y ago
  If you want to remove those hurdles you might want to see some more diversity (e.g. not lawyers) in Congress.
  - 7y ago