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> Creating more renewable energy is pointless unless it reduces/replaces the use of fossil fuels. It does. > The point the article is making is that because o

by lispm 7y ago

> Creating more renewable energy is pointless unless it reduces/replaces the use of fossil fuels. It does. > The point the article is making is that because of the way the renewable industry is being funded (from taxes on electricity consumption), consumers are opting to continue burning fossil fuels rather then use electricity. No, it doesn't. Renewable energy has a systematic preference and its share in electricity production has risen from 6% (in 2000) to 42% (in 2019). > Investment in electricity production is guided by government policy goals and support, rather than actual demand That's always the case. Energy policy is a government task. No nuclear would be build without MASSIVE government support and government demand. Germany actually created an energy market, which before did not exist, since electricity production and distribution was in the hand of 4 big companies, each having a full monopoly in a large region. > Germany is producing more energy than it needs It doesn't. Far from. Also Germany is importing energy. Lots. > reduce fossil fuel use are actually causing more environmental damage and preserving fossil fuel use. This is not what is happening. The goal is to have more than 85% renewable energy for electricity production in 2050.

marcus_holmes 7y ago
>> Creating more renewable energy is pointless unless it reduces/replaces the use of fossil fuels. >It does. Maybe read the article before commenting? There's a whole section in there explaining why this isn't happening (for heating)
- lispm 7y ago
  It's not happening because it is no goal in the energy policy to promote large scale electrical heating and there is no cheap surplus energy (different from what the article claims). There will be some expansion in the area of heat pumps, but it will be slow. The renewable energy expansion is used to replace current non-renewable electricity usage. Then we will see more renewable energy electricity used to decarbonize traffic (trains, cars, trucks, busses, ...).
- atoav 7y ago
  Electrical heating is seen as an emergency solution in Germany. There are nearly no homes with electrical heating systems in place, and if people heat electrical it is when their central heating system is broken. I think most Germans wouldn't even get the idea to heat electrically.
luckylion 7y ago
> This is not what is happening. The goal is to have more than 85% reneable energy for electricity production in 2050. I believe the point was that, because of the subsidies that are included in the price for electricity, that electricity isn't used for what it could be because it's more expensive than fossil-fuel options. Even if there was 100% renewable energy for electricity production in 2050, that wouldn't help with emissions that stem from heating unless you'd also make people heat with electricity. And to do that, you'd need to lower the prices (or raise the prices of alternatives).
- lispm 7y ago
  There is not really a separate price for fossil fuel electricity. And renewable energy has preference: if renewable energy is available, it will be used with preference. > Even if there was 100% renewable energy for electricity production in 2050, that wouldn't help with emissions that stem from heating unless you'd also make people heat with electricity. And to do that, you'd need to lower the prices (or raise the prices of alternatives). That's right. In a future with large electricity surplus it makes sense to switch to electricity for heating. To make that attractive new price models are needed. Currently another goal is to increase heating efficiency and cheap heating prices would go against it. When we switch to electricity we want to make sure that the heating is max efficient. Different from France, where electricity for heating is cheap and is used very inefficiently.
  - anon4242 7y ago
    There are good energy efficient solutions to heating that use electricity. Here in Sweden the most common solution for new houses is the downhole heat exchanger [1]. If you want a cheaper initial investment an air heat pump can be used. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downhole_heat_exchanger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downhole_heat_exchanger
    - lispm 7y ago
      Sure, there are. But houses need to be insulated. Consumers need not waste energy by just using it -> for example don't open the window to cool down, instead of lowering the heating, etc. etc. Standards need to be defined for new houses. Also provide solutions for existing houses. Provide business models. To create that market and to make some impact means that we are talking about decades.
GuB-42 7y ago
> > Creating more renewable energy is pointless unless it reduces/replaces the use of fossil fuels. > It does. Not really. Maybe in the future but now, it mostly replaced nuclear. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Electricity_production_in_Germany.PNG https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Electric... EDIT: My data is a bit outdated, they did significantly reduce they reliance on hard coal. Lignite use (the worst kind of fossil fuel...) stayed about the same and they use more gas. But still, renewable mostly replaced nuclear. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx7ZW_OVAAAfAQu.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx7ZW_OVAAAfAQu.jpg
- lispm 7y ago
  Newer: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_image/public/paragraphs/images/fig2a-gross-power-production-germany-1990-2019-source.png?itok=gfWUQdcp https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/g... Fossil fuel usage is significantly going down and adding gas power plants for very agile backup for renewable makes sense, too. Keep in mind that the Energiewende is a long term project for rebuilding the whole energy landscape in an industrialized country of more than 80 Million people and one of the larger economies in the world. The time scale is 50 years from 2000 upto 2050. Even the current point where we are at 42% of renewable energy (up from 6% in 2000) for electricity was unbelievable 20 years ago - for example given that Germany does not have much hydro-electric capacity. From 'the grid would collapse' to 'Germany will be losing all industry' everything was claimed.
  - GuB-42 7y ago
    Wow, 2019 is impressive. I wonder how they managed to tackle the duck curve[1]. Imports? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve
    - lispm 7y ago
      Germany has massive overcapacity in electricity production capabilities - even though a bunch of nuclear power plants have been closed. Many gas power plants were not profitable and were idling. This has changed a bit and coal got more expensive, so it was increasingly leaving the market. Whenever renewable is available, it pushes a lot of other sources out of the market. In the current months there were a lot of days where wind was the major source of electricity for the whole of Germany. For example in the windy days from Tuesday 28th Jan until Saturday 1st Feb the wind electricity share climbed from 47% on Tuesday to 61% on Saturday. Other sources either leave the market or more gets exported.

by lispm 7y ago

marcus_holmes 7y ago

>> Creating more renewable energy is pointless unless it reduces/replaces the use of fossil fuels. >It does. Maybe read the article before commenting? There's a whole section in there explaining why this isn't happening (for heating)

lispm 7y ago
It's not happening because it is no goal in the energy policy to promote large scale electrical heating and there is no cheap surplus energy (different from what the article claims). There will be some expansion in the area of heat pumps, but it will be slow. The renewable energy expansion is used to replace current non-renewable electricity usage. Then we will see more renewable energy electricity used to decarbonize traffic (trains, cars, trucks, busses, ...).
atoav 7y ago
Electrical heating is seen as an emergency solution in Germany. There are nearly no homes with electrical heating systems in place, and if people heat electrical it is when their central heating system is broken. I think most Germans wouldn't even get the idea to heat electrically.

luckylion 7y ago

> This is not what is happening. The goal is to have more than 85% reneable energy for electricity production in 2050. I believe the point was that, because of the subsidies that are included in the price for electricity, that electricity isn't used for what it could be because it's more expensive than fossil-fuel options. Even if there was 100% renewable energy for electricity production in 2050, that wouldn't help with emissions that stem from heating unless you'd also make people heat with electricity. And to do that, you'd need to lower the prices (or raise the prices of alternatives).

lispm 7y ago
There is not really a separate price for fossil fuel electricity. And renewable energy has preference: if renewable energy is available, it will be used with preference. > Even if there was 100% renewable energy for electricity production in 2050, that wouldn't help with emissions that stem from heating unless you'd also make people heat with electricity. And to do that, you'd need to lower the prices (or raise the prices of alternatives). That's right. In a future with large electricity surplus it makes sense to switch to electricity for heating. To make that attractive new price models are needed. Currently another goal is to increase heating efficiency and cheap heating prices would go against it. When we switch to electricity we want to make sure that the heating is max efficient. Different from France, where electricity for heating is cheap and is used very inefficiently.
- anon4242 7y ago
  There are good energy efficient solutions to heating that use electricity. Here in Sweden the most common solution for new houses is the downhole heat exchanger [1]. If you want a cheaper initial investment an air heat pump can be used. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downhole_heat_exchanger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downhole_heat_exchanger
  - lispm 7y ago
    Sure, there are. But houses need to be insulated. Consumers need not waste energy by just using it -> for example don't open the window to cool down, instead of lowering the heating, etc. etc. Standards need to be defined for new houses. Also provide solutions for existing houses. Provide business models. To create that market and to make some impact means that we are talking about decades.

GuB-42 7y ago

> > Creating more renewable energy is pointless unless it reduces/replaces the use of fossil fuels. > It does. Not really. Maybe in the future but now, it mostly replaced nuclear. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Electricity_production_in_Germany.PNG https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Electric... EDIT: My data is a bit outdated, they did significantly reduce they reliance on hard coal. Lignite use (the worst kind of fossil fuel...) stayed about the same and they use more gas. But still, renewable mostly replaced nuclear. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx7ZW_OVAAAfAQu.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx7ZW_OVAAAfAQu.jpg

lispm 7y ago
Newer: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_image/public/paragraphs/images/fig2a-gross-power-production-germany-1990-2019-source.png?itok=gfWUQdcp https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/g... Fossil fuel usage is significantly going down and adding gas power plants for very agile backup for renewable makes sense, too. Keep in mind that the Energiewende is a long term project for rebuilding the whole energy landscape in an industrialized country of more than 80 Million people and one of the larger economies in the world. The time scale is 50 years from 2000 upto 2050. Even the current point where we are at 42% of renewable energy (up from 6% in 2000) for electricity was unbelievable 20 years ago - for example given that Germany does not have much hydro-electric capacity. From 'the grid would collapse' to 'Germany will be losing all industry' everything was claimed.
- GuB-42 7y ago
  Wow, 2019 is impressive. I wonder how they managed to tackle the duck curve[1]. Imports? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve
  - lispm 7y ago
    Germany has massive overcapacity in electricity production capabilities - even though a bunch of nuclear power plants have been closed. Many gas power plants were not profitable and were idling. This has changed a bit and coal got more expensive, so it was increasingly leaving the market. Whenever renewable is available, it pushes a lot of other sources out of the market. In the current months there were a lot of days where wind was the major source of electricity for the whole of Germany. For example in the windy days from Tuesday 28th Jan until Saturday 1st Feb the wind electricity share climbed from 47% on Tuesday to 61% on Saturday. Other sources either leave the market or more gets exported.