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Phasing out gas heating is going to be a very, very big job in the Netherlands. Replacing an energy source is easy, just place a nuclear power plant / solar fie

Phasing out gas heating is going to be a very, very big job in the Netherlands. Replacing an energy source is easy, just place a nuclear power plant / solar field down and phase out the coal power station. Done. However, almost all homes in the Netherlands are heated by gas directly from the source. The gas is used to heat up water in the home and pump it through radiators on the wall or in the floor. A highly efficient system. But we can't import the gas from other countries because of the calorific properties so we need to pump our own gas. Switching to electric systems in the home will double the cost for most home owners because it's not very efficient and electricity is expensive (though the government can lower taxes on it). It also means that home owners will have to convert their current system in the home and pay the price for this. But it should be a plug and play option. An ever bigger project is switching to government provided hot water heating. That means that you have to dig up every single street in the country, get rid of all existing infrastructure (fiber, coax, power, gas, water, sewer), lay down a big water pipe in the middle, put the existing infrastructure back and repave the street. Have the hot water enter every home, redo the plumbing of the home and change the water systems. The downside to this is that instead of heating the home with 70 degrees water like we do now, it will only be around 50 degrees. You can't heat a home in the winter like that so you also need to isolate every home. And you are tied to a single provider for your heating, unlike the current system where you can occasionally switch energy provider to get a better price. People I know with this system pay more than I do with gas. The second system is a gigantic job but somewhat cheaper overall and highly efficient. The only problem is heating the water in a central location. Near an industrial zone you can use waste water from cooling systems but if nothing is around you need a lot of electricity. Or geothermal. They are still trying to find a good way to do this.

dgacmu 7y ago
Heating with an electric heat pump is quite efficient in most environments. Electric resistance heat is inefficient.
- systemtest 7y ago
  That is correct, but a heat pump requires a big unit placed outside the home that makes noise. Given our lack of space, closely grouped homes and apartment buildings, that is a challenge. Also a heat pump is not able to heat the water to 70 degrees, which is why you need to isolate your home even more for it to work. Electric resistance heat is inefficient but it's a plug-and-play replacement solution for gas heaters. You can directly replace it without any changes to the home other than needing an extra circuit breaker and wire pulled.
  - Throwaway984332 7y ago
    "but a heat pump requires a big unit placed outside the home that makes noise." Old ones maybe. We've installed a Mitsubishi mini-split that can heat a 1900 sq ft. mediocrely insulated home in Appalachia (this morning was -6C). Never mind, the indoor spits (<30dB?), the compressor outside is so quiet you can't hear it if you're next to it. My, brand new, radon pump is far noisier. As to footprint, the compressor is tall and wide (about 1m). But it's only 25 cm thick, so it doesn't take much room at all along the wall. Really, Europe has no reason at all not to go all in with splits.
    - wrp 7y ago
      > Old ones maybe. Even the "quiet" new ones cause a problem when placed in the confined area between buildings[1]. It projects low frequency noise into the neighboring structure. Very hard to deal with. You still need to be careful with placement[2]. [1] http://www.quiet.org/readings/a-c_sound%20advice.htm http://www.quiet.org/readings/a-c_sound%20advice.htm [2] https://www.eugene-or.gov/DocumentCenter/View/17196/Neighborly-Installation-of-Heat-Pumps https://www.eugene-or.gov/DocumentCenter/View/17196/Neighbor... (PDF)
    - systemtest 7y ago
      A heat pump at -6C? Are you sure it was operating as a heat pump or did it fall back on resistance heating? Also split units are rather ugly and with older homes you ruin the look. Government hot water heating with city water is much better as it doesn't affect how the street or homes look like.
pr0nin 7y ago
> You can't heat a home in the winter like that so you also need to isolate every home. Yes you do or just pay for inefficiency. I've spent 2 years in Netherlands moving from Ukraine. I was shocked how (some) Dutch people ignorant to save warmth of their houses and schools in winter. Only way to change that make it expensive. As it should be. It's apparent to me as Ukraine has turned away from Russia subsidised (cheap) gas at 2014. So most of Ukrainians now know that there are no such thing as free energy. Someone has to pay in one way or another.
- systemtest 7y ago
  In my case my total electric + gas bill is around €60. Around €30 of that is fixed cost, €30 is variable cost. I could improve by having better insulation in the walls or better windows. But with our high labour cost that would be thousands of euro's() to bring the bill down to at most €45, if I could cut my energy bill in half, which is unlikely. It's not worth the investment. () I had to replace drywall due to water damage, it was around €2000 for a section of five square meter. This was replacing the insulation, wall, redoing the stucco, repainting and reapplying the fixtures and wall trim. Luckily this was covered by insurance. I don't want to know what replacing the 180 square meters of drywall would cost.
2wrist 7y ago
here in the UK there was the whisper of using the gas system to deliver hydrogen (or a variation). I heard last year that one of the big gas mains in Yorkshire was being converted to supply hydrogen. I guess if you replace the boiler on the other end with a fuel cell based system that was still 'wet' so the radiators and water heating in the house stayed the same the there may be less change needed?
- smolder 7y ago
  If the goal is heating, hydrogen combustion would be much cheaper and just as clean. It might not be as efficient as a fuel cell + heat pump combination, but I think the production of fuel cells and heat pumps would have a worse environmental impact than generating the difference in hydrogen.
garaetjjte 7y ago
>The downside to this is that instead of heating the home with 70 degrees water like we do now, it will only be around 50 degrees. You can't heat a home in the winter like that Well you can, you just need bigger radiator surface area. Modern gas heating also runs no hotter than ~50°C because condensing boilers are more efficient.
throw0101a 7y ago
> However, almost all homes in the Netherlands are heated by gas directly from the source. Given the climate of NL is relatively mild, averaging between 0 to 25C,[1] would something like a heat pump be ideal for the area? There are units that can operating down to -20C. There seems to be a desire to move off of gas: * https://energypost.eu/a-revolution-the-netherlands-kisses-gas-goodbye-but-will-it-help-the-climate/ https://energypost.eu/a-revolution-the-netherlands-kisses-ga... Not everyone is enthusiastic about the idea: * https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/03/heat-pump-installations-will-produce-cacophony-of-noise-critics-say/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/03/heat-pump-installation... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands#Climate

dgacmu 7y ago

Heating with an electric heat pump is quite efficient in most environments. Electric resistance heat is inefficient.

systemtest 7y ago
That is correct, but a heat pump requires a big unit placed outside the home that makes noise. Given our lack of space, closely grouped homes and apartment buildings, that is a challenge. Also a heat pump is not able to heat the water to 70 degrees, which is why you need to isolate your home even more for it to work. Electric resistance heat is inefficient but it's a plug-and-play replacement solution for gas heaters. You can directly replace it without any changes to the home other than needing an extra circuit breaker and wire pulled.
- Throwaway984332 7y ago
  "but a heat pump requires a big unit placed outside the home that makes noise." Old ones maybe. We've installed a Mitsubishi mini-split that can heat a 1900 sq ft. mediocrely insulated home in Appalachia (this morning was -6C). Never mind, the indoor spits (<30dB?), the compressor outside is so quiet you can't hear it if you're next to it. My, brand new, radon pump is far noisier. As to footprint, the compressor is tall and wide (about 1m). But it's only 25 cm thick, so it doesn't take much room at all along the wall. Really, Europe has no reason at all not to go all in with splits.
  - wrp 7y ago
    > Old ones maybe. Even the "quiet" new ones cause a problem when placed in the confined area between buildings[1]. It projects low frequency noise into the neighboring structure. Very hard to deal with. You still need to be careful with placement[2]. [1] http://www.quiet.org/readings/a-c_sound%20advice.htm http://www.quiet.org/readings/a-c_sound%20advice.htm [2] https://www.eugene-or.gov/DocumentCenter/View/17196/Neighborly-Installation-of-Heat-Pumps https://www.eugene-or.gov/DocumentCenter/View/17196/Neighbor... (PDF)
  - systemtest 7y ago
    A heat pump at -6C? Are you sure it was operating as a heat pump or did it fall back on resistance heating? Also split units are rather ugly and with older homes you ruin the look. Government hot water heating with city water is much better as it doesn't affect how the street or homes look like.

pr0nin 7y ago

> You can't heat a home in the winter like that so you also need to isolate every home. Yes you do or just pay for inefficiency. I've spent 2 years in Netherlands moving from Ukraine. I was shocked how (some) Dutch people ignorant to save warmth of their houses and schools in winter. Only way to change that make it expensive. As it should be. It's apparent to me as Ukraine has turned away from Russia subsidised (cheap) gas at 2014. So most of Ukrainians now know that there are no such thing as free energy. Someone has to pay in one way or another.

systemtest 7y ago
In my case my total electric + gas bill is around €60. Around €30 of that is fixed cost, €30 is variable cost. I could improve by having better insulation in the walls or better windows. But with our high labour cost that would be thousands of euro's() to bring the bill down to at most €45, if I could cut my energy bill in half, which is unlikely. It's not worth the investment. () I had to replace drywall due to water damage, it was around €2000 for a section of five square meter. This was replacing the insulation, wall, redoing the stucco, repainting and reapplying the fixtures and wall trim. Luckily this was covered by insurance. I don't want to know what replacing the 180 square meters of drywall would cost.

2wrist 7y ago

here in the UK there was the whisper of using the gas system to deliver hydrogen (or a variation). I heard last year that one of the big gas mains in Yorkshire was being converted to supply hydrogen. I guess if you replace the boiler on the other end with a fuel cell based system that was still 'wet' so the radiators and water heating in the house stayed the same the there may be less change needed?

smolder 7y ago
If the goal is heating, hydrogen combustion would be much cheaper and just as clean. It might not be as efficient as a fuel cell + heat pump combination, but I think the production of fuel cells and heat pumps would have a worse environmental impact than generating the difference in hydrogen.

garaetjjte 7y ago

>The downside to this is that instead of heating the home with 70 degrees water like we do now, it will only be around 50 degrees. You can't heat a home in the winter like that Well you can, you just need bigger radiator surface area. Modern gas heating also runs no hotter than ~50°C because condensing boilers are more efficient.

throw0101a 7y ago

> However, almost all homes in the Netherlands are heated by gas directly from the source. Given the climate of NL is relatively mild, averaging between 0 to 25C,[1] would something like a heat pump be ideal for the area? There are units that can operating down to -20C. There seems to be a desire to move off of gas: * https://energypost.eu/a-revolution-the-netherlands-kisses-gas-goodbye-but-will-it-help-the-climate/ https://energypost.eu/a-revolution-the-netherlands-kisses-ga... Not everyone is enthusiastic about the idea: * https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/03/heat-pump-installations-will-produce-cacophony-of-noise-critics-say/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/03/heat-pump-installation... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands#Climate