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Creating more renewable energy is pointless unless it reduces/replaces the use of fossil fuels. Having more energy than we need is useless, and there's an envir

Creating more renewable energy is pointless unless it reduces/replaces the use of fossil fuels. Having more energy than we need is useless, and there's an environmental footprint to even the greenest wind farm. The point the article is making is that because of the way the renewable industry is being funded (from taxes on electricity consumption), consumers are opting to continue burning fossil fuels rather then use electricity. This means that the supply of electricity is greater than demand for it, and prices go below zero. This has two knock-on effects: 1. Investment in electricity production is guided by government policy goals and support, rather than actual demand. The only source of revenue is government redistribution of energy taxes, and that can change quickly depending on government policy. This is not sustainable, there is no incentive here to produce efficient, long-lasting energy production infrastructure. There is only an incentive to maximise government subsidy payouts in the short term. 2. Germany is producing more energy than it needs, and producing energy (from any source) has a negative environmental impact. These policies that were intended to preserve the environment and reduce fossil fuel use are actually causing more environmental damage and preserving fossil fuel use. Of course, this only considers domestic consumption, and specifically heating. It may be that the policies do better in other areas.

Faark 7y ago
I'm more familiar with the solar aspect of Energiewende, but a goal was to kick-start an industry to make renewable energy viable in the first place. This couldn't happen without significant amounts of installation caused by political commitment. Yeah, I'd love for them to fix the bad power-vs-gas incentives. But I would not expect this to happen any time soon in the current political climate were no one will be willing to take the hit for something consumer will feel that directly.
lispm 7y ago
> Creating more renewable energy is pointless unless it reduces/replaces the use of fossil fuels. It does. > The point the article is making is that because of the way the renewable industry is being funded (from taxes on electricity consumption), consumers are opting to continue burning fossil fuels rather then use electricity. No, it doesn't. Renewable energy has a systematic preference and its share in electricity production has risen from 6% (in 2000) to 42% (in 2019). > Investment in electricity production is guided by government policy goals and support, rather than actual demand That's always the case. Energy policy is a government task. No nuclear would be build without MASSIVE government support and government demand. Germany actually created an energy market, which before did not exist, since electricity production and distribution was in the hand of 4 big companies, each having a full monopoly in a large region. > Germany is producing more energy than it needs It doesn't. Far from. Also Germany is importing energy. Lots. > reduce fossil fuel use are actually causing more environmental damage and preserving fossil fuel use. This is not what is happening. The goal is to have more than 85% renewable energy for electricity production in 2050.
- marcus_holmes 7y ago
  >> Creating more renewable energy is pointless unless it reduces/replaces the use of fossil fuels. >It does. Maybe read the article before commenting? There's a whole section in there explaining why this isn't happening (for heating)
  - lispm 7y ago
    It's not happening because it is no goal in the energy policy to promote large scale electrical heating and there is no cheap surplus energy (different from what the article claims). There will be some expansion in the area of heat pumps, but it will be slow. The renewable energy expansion is used to replace current non-renewable electricity usage. Then we will see more renewable energy electricity used to decarbonize traffic (trains, cars, trucks, busses, ...).
  - atoav 7y ago
    Electrical heating is seen as an emergency solution in Germany. There are nearly no homes with electrical heating systems in place, and if people heat electrical it is when their central heating system is broken. I think most Germans wouldn't even get the idea to heat electrically.
- luckylion 7y ago
  > This is not what is happening. The goal is to have more than 85% reneable energy for electricity production in 2050. I believe the point was that, because of the subsidies that are included in the price for electricity, that electricity isn't used for what it could be because it's more expensive than fossil-fuel options. Even if there was 100% renewable energy for electricity production in 2050, that wouldn't help with emissions that stem from heating unless you'd also make people heat with electricity. And to do that, you'd need to lower the prices (or raise the prices of alternatives).
  - lispm 7y ago
    There is not really a separate price for fossil fuel electricity. And renewable energy has preference: if renewable energy is available, it will be used with preference. > Even if there was 100% renewable energy for electricity production in 2050, that wouldn't help with emissions that stem from heating unless you'd also make people heat with electricity. And to do that, you'd need to lower the prices (or raise the prices of alternatives). That's right. In a future with large electricity surplus it makes sense to switch to electricity for heating. To make that attractive new price models are needed. Currently another goal is to increase heating efficiency and cheap heating prices would go against it. When we switch to electricity we want to make sure that the heating is max efficient. Different from France, where electricity for heating is cheap and is used very inefficiently.
ryder9 7y ago
[citation required] for a lot of these ridiculous claims
- marcus_holmes 7y ago
  [points at article]

Faark 7y ago

I'm more familiar with the solar aspect of Energiewende, but a goal was to kick-start an industry to make renewable energy viable in the first place. This couldn't happen without significant amounts of installation caused by political commitment. Yeah, I'd love for them to fix the bad power-vs-gas incentives. But I would not expect this to happen any time soon in the current political climate were no one will be willing to take the hit for something consumer will feel that directly.

lispm 7y ago

> Creating more renewable energy is pointless unless it reduces/replaces the use of fossil fuels. It does. > The point the article is making is that because of the way the renewable industry is being funded (from taxes on electricity consumption), consumers are opting to continue burning fossil fuels rather then use electricity. No, it doesn't. Renewable energy has a systematic preference and its share in electricity production has risen from 6% (in 2000) to 42% (in 2019). > Investment in electricity production is guided by government policy goals and support, rather than actual demand That's always the case. Energy policy is a government task. No nuclear would be build without MASSIVE government support and government demand. Germany actually created an energy market, which before did not exist, since electricity production and distribution was in the hand of 4 big companies, each having a full monopoly in a large region. > Germany is producing more energy than it needs It doesn't. Far from. Also Germany is importing energy. Lots. > reduce fossil fuel use are actually causing more environmental damage and preserving fossil fuel use. This is not what is happening. The goal is to have more than 85% renewable energy for electricity production in 2050.

marcus_holmes 7y ago
>> Creating more renewable energy is pointless unless it reduces/replaces the use of fossil fuels. >It does. Maybe read the article before commenting? There's a whole section in there explaining why this isn't happening (for heating)
- lispm 7y ago
  It's not happening because it is no goal in the energy policy to promote large scale electrical heating and there is no cheap surplus energy (different from what the article claims). There will be some expansion in the area of heat pumps, but it will be slow. The renewable energy expansion is used to replace current non-renewable electricity usage. Then we will see more renewable energy electricity used to decarbonize traffic (trains, cars, trucks, busses, ...).
- atoav 7y ago
  Electrical heating is seen as an emergency solution in Germany. There are nearly no homes with electrical heating systems in place, and if people heat electrical it is when their central heating system is broken. I think most Germans wouldn't even get the idea to heat electrically.
luckylion 7y ago
> This is not what is happening. The goal is to have more than 85% reneable energy for electricity production in 2050. I believe the point was that, because of the subsidies that are included in the price for electricity, that electricity isn't used for what it could be because it's more expensive than fossil-fuel options. Even if there was 100% renewable energy for electricity production in 2050, that wouldn't help with emissions that stem from heating unless you'd also make people heat with electricity. And to do that, you'd need to lower the prices (or raise the prices of alternatives).
- lispm 7y ago
  There is not really a separate price for fossil fuel electricity. And renewable energy has preference: if renewable energy is available, it will be used with preference. > Even if there was 100% renewable energy for electricity production in 2050, that wouldn't help with emissions that stem from heating unless you'd also make people heat with electricity. And to do that, you'd need to lower the prices (or raise the prices of alternatives). That's right. In a future with large electricity surplus it makes sense to switch to electricity for heating. To make that attractive new price models are needed. Currently another goal is to increase heating efficiency and cheap heating prices would go against it. When we switch to electricity we want to make sure that the heating is max efficient. Different from France, where electricity for heating is cheap and is used very inefficiently.

ryder9 7y ago

[citation required] for a lot of these ridiculous claims

marcus_holmes 7y ago
[points at article]