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Ad Polish end of high school exams: quite a few years ago I created an interactive widget to explore it https://github.com/stared/delab-matury https://github.co

by stared 7y ago

Ad Polish end of high school exams: quite a few years ago I created an interactive widget to explore it https://github.com/stared/delab-matury https://github.com/stared/delab-matury. There are a few jokes about the Matural Distribution (Matura is the name of this exam) or the Polish Gaussian. It is the Polish language, which is the most discontinuous. However: - There are quite a few scores for the essay which are subjective (e.g. on the style). - It is an official procedure that in the case of results on the edge, the person marking should mark an ambiguous score in the favour of the student.

ehnto 7y ago
> It is an official procedure that in the case of results on the edge, the person marking should mark an ambiguous score in the favour of the student Given that it's subjective, I find that a really generous and positive take on marking protocol. It takes some perspective to note that while you can't see the value in someone's work, there may still be value in it. edit: After reading through the article in full, I understand perhaps that's not what's going on exactly. Just teachers trying their hardest to find ways not to fail the exam as it is such an important life step for that person. Still a virtuous thing to do!
- stared 7y ago
  I don't consider it virtuous! By pushing more to pass: - either the next year the problems will be more difficult, - or it devaluates the worth of passing an exam. Also, 30% is very low (especially as such cut-off are for the basic level exams, not advanced level exams). You get the high school diploma, but it is not something that is enough to get to any univ. that makes any sense (some will take such students, but only as they are being funded on the level of enrolment OR they are private and are essientially "a bribe-in rates for a diploma" style).
  - ehnto 7y ago
    Is it not a final exam for the entire schooling process? If it is, I don't think there's anything wrong with letting people who attended, tried and got close, a passing grade. As much as we value merit, the real world actually isn't a meritocracy, and high school isn't much of a measure for how successful someone has the potential to be. I think you begin to be right as people move into academia though, certainly you want people who are actually good at the subject to be the ones passing university and going into the work force.
gwd 7y ago
> It is an official procedure that in the case of results on the edge, the person marking should mark an ambiguous score in the favour of the student. The funny thing about the "almost there" argument is that what it means is the actual line is more fuzzy, but a bit lower. That is, if the "official" cut-of is 30, and teachers are willing to "find an extra point" for people with scores of 28 and 29 but not 27, then the actual cut-off is 27. I had a prof at uni who for programming projects would say: "The deadline is 6pm on Friday. But there's a 6-hour grace period where you're allowed to be late." Inevitably someone in the class would say, "Doesn't that mean that the actual deadline is at midnight?" To which he would respond, "Yes, of course. But if someone submits a project at 12:01 and it's rejected, when they say 'But I was only 1 minute late!', I can say, 'No, you were 6 hours late.'"
- stared 7y ago
  On conference deadlines and application times, there are some plots: https://p.migdal.pl/2017/11/15/after-pydata-warsaw-2017.html#sign-up-and-check-in-times https://p.migdal.pl/2017/11/15/after-pydata-warsaw-2017.html... It is interesting when there are a few deadlines (e.g. early bird, regular, last call).
- jcranmer 7y ago
  When I was a TA, the rule for homework assignments was that they were due at midnight, with a grace period chosen per-assignment of 1 to 6 hours, undisclosed to students. Alas, I could only choose the grace period on 5 minute increments, so I couldn't pick a time like 3:13. The grace period I set for the hardest homework assignment was 1:05--probably cut off a few people who were hoping to extend a two-week assignment by 3 or 4 hours.
  - gwd 7y ago
    After reading about human beings' natural tendency to "anchor" on things like the next 100-point ELO rating, that probably a better way of doing things would be to say it was due at midnight, but there was a 10-minute grace period. people naturally will tend to aim for midnight, regardless of whether it's a hard deadline or not. IOW, my professor's insight that there had to be a hard deadline somewhere was correct. But he missed the fact that not all hard deadlines are equal: a hard deadline that is 10 minutes past a natural "anchor" is much easier for anchor-prone humans to meet than a hard deadline right on a natural "anchor". Which is a bit strange, because the official university policy with regard to scheduling actually already took into account this natural anchoring: It was official policy that if a schedule said 10:00-11:00, the class was actually 10:10-11:00. The idea being that it's much easer for the "hard end" of a class to be at 11:00 than 10:50.

by stared 7y ago

ehnto 7y ago

> It is an official procedure that in the case of results on the edge, the person marking should mark an ambiguous score in the favour of the student Given that it's subjective, I find that a really generous and positive take on marking protocol. It takes some perspective to note that while you can't see the value in someone's work, there may still be value in it. edit: After reading through the article in full, I understand perhaps that's not what's going on exactly. Just teachers trying their hardest to find ways not to fail the exam as it is such an important life step for that person. Still a virtuous thing to do!

stared 7y ago
I don't consider it virtuous! By pushing more to pass: - either the next year the problems will be more difficult, - or it devaluates the worth of passing an exam. Also, 30% is very low (especially as such cut-off are for the basic level exams, not advanced level exams). You get the high school diploma, but it is not something that is enough to get to any univ. that makes any sense (some will take such students, but only as they are being funded on the level of enrolment OR they are private and are essientially "a bribe-in rates for a diploma" style).
- ehnto 7y ago
  Is it not a final exam for the entire schooling process? If it is, I don't think there's anything wrong with letting people who attended, tried and got close, a passing grade. As much as we value merit, the real world actually isn't a meritocracy, and high school isn't much of a measure for how successful someone has the potential to be. I think you begin to be right as people move into academia though, certainly you want people who are actually good at the subject to be the ones passing university and going into the work force.

gwd 7y ago

> It is an official procedure that in the case of results on the edge, the person marking should mark an ambiguous score in the favour of the student. The funny thing about the "almost there" argument is that what it means is the actual line is more fuzzy, but a bit lower. That is, if the "official" cut-of is 30, and teachers are willing to "find an extra point" for people with scores of 28 and 29 but not 27, then the actual cut-off is 27. I had a prof at uni who for programming projects would say: "The deadline is 6pm on Friday. But there's a 6-hour grace period where you're allowed to be late." Inevitably someone in the class would say, "Doesn't that mean that the actual deadline is at midnight?" To which he would respond, "Yes, of course. But if someone submits a project at 12:01 and it's rejected, when they say 'But I was only 1 minute late!', I can say, 'No, you were 6 hours late.'"

stared 7y ago
On conference deadlines and application times, there are some plots: https://p.migdal.pl/2017/11/15/after-pydata-warsaw-2017.html#sign-up-and-check-in-times https://p.migdal.pl/2017/11/15/after-pydata-warsaw-2017.html... It is interesting when there are a few deadlines (e.g. early bird, regular, last call).
jcranmer 7y ago
When I was a TA, the rule for homework assignments was that they were due at midnight, with a grace period chosen per-assignment of 1 to 6 hours, undisclosed to students. Alas, I could only choose the grace period on 5 minute increments, so I couldn't pick a time like 3:13. The grace period I set for the hardest homework assignment was 1:05--probably cut off a few people who were hoping to extend a two-week assignment by 3 or 4 hours.
- gwd 7y ago
  After reading about human beings' natural tendency to "anchor" on things like the next 100-point ELO rating, that probably a better way of doing things would be to say it was due at midnight, but there was a 10-minute grace period. people naturally will tend to aim for midnight, regardless of whether it's a hard deadline or not. IOW, my professor's insight that there had to be a hard deadline somewhere was correct. But he missed the fact that not all hard deadlines are equal: a hard deadline that is 10 minutes past a natural "anchor" is much easier for anchor-prone humans to meet than a hard deadline right on a natural "anchor". Which is a bit strange, because the official university policy with regard to scheduling actually already took into account this natural anchoring: It was official policy that if a schedule said 10:00-11:00, the class was actually 10:10-11:00. The idea being that it's much easer for the "hard end" of a class to be at 11:00 than 10:50.