6 ms·

ex-NSA engineers. That has a negative brand to it. Especially and specifically when it comes to respect for data privacy.

save_ferris 7y ago
I’ve met several ex-NSAers that used their time there to build their brand successfully. At the end of the day, the dragnet surveillance decisions came from the highest levels of the Bush and Obama administrations, not the boots on the ground.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- whatshisface 7y ago
  "I was just following orders," is not an excuse with a precedent of being accepted.
  - gruez 7y ago
    It works as long as the current regime isn't overthrown or your country gets occupied.
  - philosopher1234 7y ago
    Surveiling the population is not equivalent to genocide
    - Dahoon 7y ago
      No but it makes it easier if it comes to that.
  - sdinsn 7y ago
    No, the point is that the average NSA employee was not involved in dragnet at any capacity.
    - fiblye 7y ago
      Most people who were members of socially bad organizations throughout history weren't bad people or doing bad things, but willingly joining and serving a support role for such an organization is itself morally dubious. It's actively helping enable their activities. For example, if someone got a job on a shark finning boat maintaining the knives, they're still complicit in shark finning even if they're never touched or seen a shark in their life. And even if their actual role was spying on and helping detain Americans for arbitrary reasons, nobody's going to slap that on their resume. They'd say they were a data aggregating administrative officer.
  - austhrow743 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders "Historically, the plea of superior orders has been used both before and after the Nuremberg Trials, with a notable lack of consistency in various rulings."
- zionic 7y ago
  If I see NSA on a resume, it's going in the trash. Just being honest.
  - kalberg6429 7y ago
    As an outsider to the US, I expected a job for the NSA to be seen as respectable. Quite surprised that it seems to be quite the opposite.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - catalogia 7y ago
      > "As an outsider to the US, I expected a job for the NSA to be seen as respectable." Why should we respect those that spy on us? Would you expect Germans respect the Stasi?
      - sgift 7y ago
        Google, Facebook, ... every time we talk about these things the US position seems to be Germans are privacy nuts. It shouldn't be surprising that we think people in the US don't see privacy invasions as a serious problem / accept them in the name of a "higher purpose".
    - sdinsn 7y ago
      It is perfectly respectable to most people, not the loud few commenters you find in this thread.
    - Dahoon 7y ago
      >As an outsider to the US, I expected a job for the NSA to be seen as respectable I think that has a lot to do about which social circles you move in. If I saw NSA on a CV I would throw it in the trash.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > not the boots on the ground True, but the "boots on the ground" are OK with it enough to go along with it. Their hands may not be quite as dirty, but they certainly aren't clean.
- HashThis 7y ago
  "German Stasi is on my CV, because I worked there. I was just following orders."
bluntfang 7y ago
Do FAANG engineers have the same baggage? What about any adtech company ever?
- justinclift 7y ago
  Yes.
- kick 7y ago
  They should have lesser, though still real, baggage attached to them. There are definitely a few types of people in computer science who refuse to touch FAANG employees, but it's not as widespread as I wish it were.
  - justinclift 7y ago
    Why should they have lesser baggage attached to them?
    - kick 7y ago
      NSA is unambiguously doing worse things than any FAANG or adtech company could do in their wildest wet dreams. "NSA staff used spy tools on spouses, ex-lovers" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveillance-watchdog-idUSBRE98Q14G20130927 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveillance-watchdog... Optic Nerve ("GCHQ" in title is misleading because the NSA played a very enthusiastic helping role in it): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optic_Nerve_(GCHQ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optic_Nerve_(GCHQ) ECHELON: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON There's so much they're responsible for that it seems like it'd be excessive to post all of them, and HN has a character limit, anyway. Even the most well-known ones would fill a couple of comments.
      - justinclift 7y ago
        Agreed, corrupt(ed) NSA people can do very bad stuff to targeted individuals. However, adtech companies damage everyone, and fairly significantly. eg concentration problems, addictive behaviours, etc. That's literally "human race" level damage. Doesn't seem like a lesser thing to me. :/

save_ferris 7y ago

I’ve met several ex-NSAers that used their time there to build their brand successfully. At the end of the day, the dragnet surveillance decisions came from the highest levels of the Bush and Obama administrations, not the boots on the ground.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
whatshisface 7y ago
"I was just following orders," is not an excuse with a precedent of being accepted.
- gruez 7y ago
  It works as long as the current regime isn't overthrown or your country gets occupied.
- philosopher1234 7y ago
  Surveiling the population is not equivalent to genocide
  - Dahoon 7y ago
    No but it makes it easier if it comes to that.
- sdinsn 7y ago
  No, the point is that the average NSA employee was not involved in dragnet at any capacity.
  - fiblye 7y ago
    Most people who were members of socially bad organizations throughout history weren't bad people or doing bad things, but willingly joining and serving a support role for such an organization is itself morally dubious. It's actively helping enable their activities. For example, if someone got a job on a shark finning boat maintaining the knives, they're still complicit in shark finning even if they're never touched or seen a shark in their life. And even if their actual role was spying on and helping detain Americans for arbitrary reasons, nobody's going to slap that on their resume. They'd say they were a data aggregating administrative officer.
- austhrow743 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders "Historically, the plea of superior orders has been used both before and after the Nuremberg Trials, with a notable lack of consistency in various rulings."
zionic 7y ago
If I see NSA on a resume, it's going in the trash. Just being honest.
- kalberg6429 7y ago
  As an outsider to the US, I expected a job for the NSA to be seen as respectable. Quite surprised that it seems to be quite the opposite.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - catalogia 7y ago
    > "As an outsider to the US, I expected a job for the NSA to be seen as respectable." Why should we respect those that spy on us? Would you expect Germans respect the Stasi?
    - sgift 7y ago
      Google, Facebook, ... every time we talk about these things the US position seems to be Germans are privacy nuts. It shouldn't be surprising that we think people in the US don't see privacy invasions as a serious problem / accept them in the name of a "higher purpose".
  - sdinsn 7y ago
    It is perfectly respectable to most people, not the loud few commenters you find in this thread.
  - Dahoon 7y ago
    >As an outsider to the US, I expected a job for the NSA to be seen as respectable I think that has a lot to do about which social circles you move in. If I saw NSA on a CV I would throw it in the trash.
JohnFen 7y ago
> not the boots on the ground True, but the "boots on the ground" are OK with it enough to go along with it. Their hands may not be quite as dirty, but they certainly aren't clean.
HashThis 7y ago
"German Stasi is on my CV, because I worked there. I was just following orders."

bluntfang 7y ago

Do FAANG engineers have the same baggage? What about any adtech company ever?

justinclift 7y ago
Yes.
kick 7y ago
They should have lesser, though still real, baggage attached to them. There are definitely a few types of people in computer science who refuse to touch FAANG employees, but it's not as widespread as I wish it were.
- justinclift 7y ago
  Why should they have lesser baggage attached to them?
  - kick 7y ago
    NSA is unambiguously doing worse things than any FAANG or adtech company could do in their wildest wet dreams. "NSA staff used spy tools on spouses, ex-lovers" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveillance-watchdog-idUSBRE98Q14G20130927 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveillance-watchdog... Optic Nerve ("GCHQ" in title is misleading because the NSA played a very enthusiastic helping role in it): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optic_Nerve_(GCHQ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optic_Nerve_(GCHQ) ECHELON: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON There's so much they're responsible for that it seems like it'd be excessive to post all of them, and HN has a character limit, anyway. Even the most well-known ones would fill a couple of comments.
    - justinclift 7y ago
      Agreed, corrupt(ed) NSA people can do very bad stuff to targeted individuals. However, adtech companies damage everyone, and fairly significantly. eg concentration problems, addictive behaviours, etc. That's literally "human race" level damage. Doesn't seem like a lesser thing to me. :/