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No offense, but stuff like this pisses me off to no end. You just assert that all applications are your application and then conclude: and therefore anyone doi
by mikekchar 7y ago
No offense, but stuff like this pisses me off to no end. You just assert that all applications are your application and then conclude: and therefore anyone doing anything else is crazy. It's frustrating beyond belief.
The stupid thing is that I know this is not what you actually believe. You say it in the first sentence of the second paragraph of the comment I'm responding to. If this is the tool you have, then it's a tool you can use. If you use it properly and understand the limitations, then it is fine. It's more than fine. It does what it needs to do!
I get that it's extremely easy not to understand how to do things. I get that it's extremely easy not to understand the limitations. I get that it's extremely important to send the message that unless you actually, truly know what you are doing, then probably you should not be using email and OpenPGP to encrypt messages. And in fact, if you have the chance to use something better, you really, really shuold. I get all that stuff. But it is just wrong to imply that you can't send information securely using OpenPGP and email. I mean, it's infuriatingly insulting to be told by a security expert (which I readily and without reservation admit you are) that I'm just playing when I know said expert knows they are exaggerating to push their agenda.
I can even show considerable sympathy for this agenda. I think you do a wonderful job of explaining problems and showing where there are better ways of doing things. You are doing good work! But, stop with the insults, please. It's beneath you. It pisses off people like me that would love to support your cause but are so pissed off with your attitude that I can't bring myself to do so. You are hurting yourself and you are hurting your cause with this line of nonsense.
- tptacek 7y agoI am saying the opposite: that nobody should be using this tool, and that the only "real" reason it gets used is for social signaling, and the everyone using it to protect secrets has been misled by the people doing it to signal. What I'm saying in the post is what I believe, for the reasons stated in the post. People should stop using encrypted email.
- mikekchar 7y agoAnd I should seriously implement the Signal protocol on decades old equipment in the middle of a company infrastructure that's on an intra-net, when I can hack something perfectly serviceable instead. Well... I mean... Yes, I should :-) But it's just not reasonable that I'm going to get that budget. Not every application is your application. Not every fight is your fight. If you absolutely must insult someone, target it and be specific. But, better yet, get your message across without insulting people. It will be much, much better.
- tptacek 7y agoI reject the idea that people should seriously consider the shoddy security of encrypted emails so that your "decades old equipment in the middle of a company infrastructure that's on an intra-net" can participate on equal terms with commodity phones that are 2x as capable. That's the quintessential argument for ergonomics over security, and that's the offensive argument, not mine.
- mikekchar 7y agoVoluntarily removing this message because I don't think it holds with the rules of HN. I wish I could have a productive conversation on this topic, but it seems like it's not in the cards. Hope you have a good day, otherwise.
- tptacek 7y agoI am having a GREAT day (hiccup!). I didn't see your original message but I'm sure it was well-intentioned and wrong. I am wrong often too. Just not this time. Taking back an HN post you think will be taken as uncivil is a strong move. Respect for taking the community seriously. There's nothing personal in my criticism of encrypted email; it's the technology I hate, not the people behind it.
- mikekchar 7y agoWell, I would be remiss if I didn't say that I also take you seriously and respect you. I also don't think you are wrong... at least in the way you are looking at it. I think there are other ways to look at it, though. Still, no excuse for me being grumpy.
- vcxy 7y agoThis is disingenuous. My wife for example would be fired if she didn't encrypt medical records that she has no choice but to email as part of her job. There are thousands of people in just our US state that she might need to communicate protected health information with. Those thousands of people are not signaling. They would just prefer to keep their jobs.
- tptacek 7y agoI have no problem with anyone sending encrypted email because they are legally required to do so. I'm sure there are a bunch more corner cases like that, and I'll have the same response to all of them. I think it's pretty clear who the intended target of my critique is.
- rdiddly 7y agoCorner case? I would have thought sending secrets via email was more than just a corner case of encrypted email. I don't actually use encrypted email though myself.
- omnimus 7y agoPeople required to use encrypted email may well be majority of users using encrypted email. In that context its for sure not corner case. But in context of all people using email and people looking for more privacy it is for sure corner case. I think author is advocating for all of communications to be encrypted and it cant be email because its just bad. People should stop advocating for it.
- fxtentacle 7y agoI fail to see the insult. LARP is a popular free time activity with nerds here in Germany. And people will fawn over kit and/or spend money on extravagant but useless equipment to earn social status inside the community. So I thought that calling people LARPing was actually quite clever, because the reason why I would roll out buggy encrypted email would be the same as for why I'd walk around in a cow leather robe in a forest shouting like a madman. I have done both, btw. And just like nobody would complain about me accidentally breaking character during LARP, nobody would complain if I accidentally break the encryption by replying the wrong way. So as someone enjoying LARP and dabbling with encrypted emails, I didn't feel offended by his comparison.
- mikekchar 7y agoI like your interpretation. I'm going to choose it too. Thanks!
- prostheticvamp 7y agoLarp has different cultural baggage in US vs Europe. In US it is depicted as the most nerdy, most socially awkward activity. Very insulting.
- simonebrunozzi 7y ago> ...as for why I'd walk around in a cow leather robe in a forest shouting like a madman. I have done both, btw. You're great! Loved this.