5 ms·

Hi, I'm the author of the piece, perhaps better known here as founder of CoderPad. Feel free to ask me anything but things are a bit crazy right now!

by akanet 7y ago

lonnyk 7y ago
I have to be honest that I’m not really seeing any major issues here. They _used_ to do something and now they don’t, so he didn’t lie about it. They _have_ had low placement rates and informed their investors, but it’s unclear what the average or common placement rate is and if it’s significantly different from what they claim. And _some_ students didn’t like the curriculum. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You also make reference to some internal documents. Perhaps sharing them will help further the story?
- akanet 7y ago
  I disagree that this is an accurate assessment of my claims. When you claim that you "never have" done something after you've already done it, you're making a statement about both the present and the past. Your point about averages or something is also difficult for me to parse.
AquinasCoder 7y ago
You mention that there's value in Lambda's mission, but I'm curious as to whether you believe that Lambda's business model is redeemable. It's hard to argue that there's clearly a major risk involved in attending a program like this, but at the same time it seems to be working for some individuals. Would these high-achieving individuals be able to teach themselves? Possibly. But I'm not sure that going back to the traditional college route is the right choice either. And how can we better help those who lack the aptitude or enjoyment of programming and find out too late into these programs?
- akanet 7y ago
  Bootcamps probably need a longer and more rigorous trial period - one thing that students were really pissed about was that they didn't find out that Lambda was bad until after the month-long forgiveness period ended.
kick 7y ago
These documents show that, as recently as August 2018, a hedge fund paid $10K to purchase half of Lambda School’s ISAs. Was this at $10k/ISA? And was it half of all ISAs or all of half of the ISAs?
- akanet 7y ago
  i see now that i could have worded that better - but 10k per entire ISA, and half of ISAs minted
brenden2 7y ago
Thanks for publishing it! It takes a lot of courage to go against the "who's hot in the valley" zeitgeist. Also, CoderPad was life changing when we started using it at Airbnb. It made phone interviews so much more effective, thanks for creating it.
- akanet 7y ago
  Not having VCs of my own helped a lot!
  - giansegato 7y ago
    Why is that? Can you elaborate?
intherdfield 7y ago
I don't think you mentioned that the student doesn't have to pay back Lambda after 60 months of deferred payments. That seems important. From the Lambda site: "The income share agreement has no interest. It's a flat percentage that goes away once you've reached the $30k payment cap, you've made 24 payments, or after 60 months of deferred payments (even if you haven't paid us anything)." But you wrote in the article: "Students with no safety nets experience real financial pain from the nine-month hiatus from work, in addition to the looming dread of possibly having to pay Lambda $30K one day."
- akanet 7y ago
  Yeah, got cut for brevity, but students definitely experience serious anxiety about even the five year horizon.
  - the_watcher 7y ago
    It's a pretty important point though. Compare with a student loan, which never goes away. Failing to mention that seems in pretty clear bad faith.
  - intherdfield 7y ago
    That seems really disingenuous. Can't you update the article with this important detail?
    - akanet 7y ago
      It's not disingenuous; I think an earlier draft had it. This came down from 4000 words. I'll try to ask my editor to add this as a correction but things are pretty hectic. It's a fairly minor omission in my opinion, but I understand disagreeing.
      - tomhoward 7y ago
        It's hardly a "fairly minor omission" in a country where the conventional tertiary education saddles the average student with a debt that is often far bigger than $30k, doesn't expire, and cannot be escaped even through bankruptcy, meaning that even retirement benefits can be garnished above a meagre $750/month.
mattmcknight 7y ago
Why did you choose to write about this program as opposed to other programs that teach people coding skills, but have vastly worse payment plans, including some which can't even be dispensed in bankruptcy? The criticism seems unmoored from its placement in the set of alternatives for people who want to try to see if they can get a job coding. The undergraduate degree is notoriously bad for this purpose, from time, practicality and cost perspectives. How do you propose that people learn these skills- or learn if they are capable of achieving these skills?
- akanet 7y ago
  Why? Its prominence.
  - 737min 7y ago
    Exactly ^, Lambda has gotten a lot of mindshare quickly, based on some provable misrepresentations. That’s not good for either bootcamps or startup ecosystem generally.
  - mattmcknight 7y ago
    Do you admit it has advantages over the alternatives? It sure doesn't sound like that in the article, where all you do is bash the company, without mentioning how it is an improvement.
  - mattmcknight 7y ago
    "How do you propose that people learn these skills- or learn if they are capable of achieving these skills?" Is that too difficult to answer for you?
    - lazyasciiart 7y ago
      There might not be a good answer, but that doesn't make the existing attempts good. That argument is the same logic I could use to say "Why did you criticize their plan of hitting people in the head as treatment for stage IV cancer if you haven't got a better proposal?"
snisarenko 7y ago
Hey man. Thank you for publishing this article, and doing actual journalism (researching the actual data, and giving people opportunity to respond). I've been recommending lambda school to my friends, only based on their marketing. I may stop doing that now.
AlchemistCamp 7y ago
Hey Vincent! Great to see you here. Are you gonna go back on IH for office hours this year? Also how much time did you spend on all of the research for this piece?

Hi, I'm the author of the piece, perhaps better known here as founder of CoderPad. Feel free to ask me anything but things are a bit crazy right now!

by akanet 7y ago

Hi, I'm the author of the piece, perhaps better known here as founder of CoderPad. Feel free to ask me anything but things are a bit crazy right now!

lonnyk 7y ago

I have to be honest that I’m not really seeing any major issues here. They _used_ to do something and now they don’t, so he didn’t lie about it. They _have_ had low placement rates and informed their investors, but it’s unclear what the average or common placement rate is and if it’s significantly different from what they claim. And _some_ students didn’t like the curriculum. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You also make reference to some internal documents. Perhaps sharing them will help further the story?

akanet 7y ago
I disagree that this is an accurate assessment of my claims. When you claim that you "never have" done something after you've already done it, you're making a statement about both the present and the past. Your point about averages or something is also difficult for me to parse.

AquinasCoder 7y ago

You mention that there's value in Lambda's mission, but I'm curious as to whether you believe that Lambda's business model is redeemable. It's hard to argue that there's clearly a major risk involved in attending a program like this, but at the same time it seems to be working for some individuals. Would these high-achieving individuals be able to teach themselves? Possibly. But I'm not sure that going back to the traditional college route is the right choice either. And how can we better help those who lack the aptitude or enjoyment of programming and find out too late into these programs?

akanet 7y ago
Bootcamps probably need a longer and more rigorous trial period - one thing that students were really pissed about was that they didn't find out that Lambda was bad until after the month-long forgiveness period ended.

kick 7y ago

These documents show that, as recently as August 2018, a hedge fund paid $10K to purchase half of Lambda School’s ISAs. Was this at $10k/ISA? And was it half of all ISAs or all of half of the ISAs?

akanet 7y ago
i see now that i could have worded that better - but 10k per entire ISA, and half of ISAs minted

brenden2 7y ago

Thanks for publishing it! It takes a lot of courage to go against the "who's hot in the valley" zeitgeist. Also, CoderPad was life changing when we started using it at Airbnb. It made phone interviews so much more effective, thanks for creating it.

akanet 7y ago
Not having VCs of my own helped a lot!
- giansegato 7y ago
  Why is that? Can you elaborate?

intherdfield 7y ago

I don't think you mentioned that the student doesn't have to pay back Lambda after 60 months of deferred payments. That seems important. From the Lambda site: "The income share agreement has no interest. It's a flat percentage that goes away once you've reached the $30k payment cap, you've made 24 payments, or after 60 months of deferred payments (even if you haven't paid us anything)." But you wrote in the article: "Students with no safety nets experience real financial pain from the nine-month hiatus from work, in addition to the looming dread of possibly having to pay Lambda $30K one day."

akanet 7y ago
Yeah, got cut for brevity, but students definitely experience serious anxiety about even the five year horizon.
- the_watcher 7y ago
  It's a pretty important point though. Compare with a student loan, which never goes away. Failing to mention that seems in pretty clear bad faith.
- intherdfield 7y ago
  That seems really disingenuous. Can't you update the article with this important detail?
  - akanet 7y ago
    It's not disingenuous; I think an earlier draft had it. This came down from 4000 words. I'll try to ask my editor to add this as a correction but things are pretty hectic. It's a fairly minor omission in my opinion, but I understand disagreeing.
    - tomhoward 7y ago
      It's hardly a "fairly minor omission" in a country where the conventional tertiary education saddles the average student with a debt that is often far bigger than $30k, doesn't expire, and cannot be escaped even through bankruptcy, meaning that even retirement benefits can be garnished above a meagre $750/month.

mattmcknight 7y ago

Why did you choose to write about this program as opposed to other programs that teach people coding skills, but have vastly worse payment plans, including some which can't even be dispensed in bankruptcy? The criticism seems unmoored from its placement in the set of alternatives for people who want to try to see if they can get a job coding. The undergraduate degree is notoriously bad for this purpose, from time, practicality and cost perspectives. How do you propose that people learn these skills- or learn if they are capable of achieving these skills?

akanet 7y ago
Why? Its prominence.
- 737min 7y ago
  Exactly ^, Lambda has gotten a lot of mindshare quickly, based on some provable misrepresentations. That’s not good for either bootcamps or startup ecosystem generally.
- mattmcknight 7y ago
  Do you admit it has advantages over the alternatives? It sure doesn't sound like that in the article, where all you do is bash the company, without mentioning how it is an improvement.
- mattmcknight 7y ago
  "How do you propose that people learn these skills- or learn if they are capable of achieving these skills?" Is that too difficult to answer for you?
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    There might not be a good answer, but that doesn't make the existing attempts good. That argument is the same logic I could use to say "Why did you criticize their plan of hitting people in the head as treatment for stage IV cancer if you haven't got a better proposal?"

snisarenko 7y ago

Hey man. Thank you for publishing this article, and doing actual journalism (researching the actual data, and giving people opportunity to respond). I've been recommending lambda school to my friends, only based on their marketing. I may stop doing that now.

AlchemistCamp 7y ago

Hey Vincent! Great to see you here. Are you gonna go back on IH for office hours this year? Also how much time did you spend on all of the research for this piece?