7 ms·

Bacteria already tries to do this. Leads me to believe it's impossible.

SAI_Peregrinus 7y ago
Bacteria are the biggest argument against grey goo. They already are, they already exist, and they're already everywhere, yet things other than bacteria still exist. They've had several billion years of evolution to work on it too. They're probably in local maxima, not in any global maximum, but it's also likely that there is no single global maximum given how different the requirements are for using different energy sources.
- Symmetry 7y ago
  The thing I would worry about it replicators that use stronger chemical bonds than bacteria do and can eat bacteria but can't be eaten by bacteria. They would probably have to reproduce much more slowly due to higher energy requirements but if they end up eating everything in the long run it might not matter.
  - DagAgren 7y ago
    If using stronger chemical bonds was advantageous, bacteria probably would be doing it already. The weak bonds is what complex chemistry and thus complex functionality possible. Stronger bonds is dead matter, and dead matter does not compete.
    - philipkglass 7y ago
      Incorporating fluorine in a molecule offers additional flexibility over the more common chlorine and bromine compounds commonly found in natural products. For example, the fluoroquinolone antibiotics are distinguished by their introduction of fluorine, yielding compounds more effective than found in nature. There are a few fluorinated natural products made by wild organisms, but they are very rare considering the elemental abundance of fluorine on Earth and the high utility found for fluorine in pharmaceutical development: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23034231 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23034231 The strong bonds formed by fluorine, and its formation of insoluble compounds with alkaline earth metals, probably explains the rarity of natural fluorinated products. The fluorinated natural products are no more "dead matter" than other poisons evolved by plants against herbivores, but it's hard to evolve out of local minima that exclude fluorinated compounds.
- carapace 7y ago
  I suspect that multi-cellular life is the art form of unicellular life. We are art made by microbes. (I like to think.)
- gHosts 7y ago
  Arguably you're just a great big pile of grey goo. ie. It's not an argument against grey goo, it's an argument the grey goo catastrophe rules everywhere and has done so for eons.
ASalazarMX 7y ago
In their defense, they're competing with organized (colored?) goo like us. We take many resources that would be gray goo otherwise.
pmoriarty 7y ago
"Bacteria already tries to do this. Leads me to believe it's impossible." This is like saying "no bird can fly faster than the speed of sound therefore flying faster than the speed of sound is impossible."
- DagAgren 7y ago
  Not really. Flying faster than the speed of sound without complex supporting industry is not possible. Flying faster than the speed of sound is not sustainable, it is something we have to work very hard to achieve, and the second we stopped trying very hard to do it, it would cease to happen. Grey goo, on the other hand, has to be self-sufficient and sustainable to exist.
  - ben_w 7y ago
    On the other other hand, something only needs to be able to eat us to be a threat. A slightly better bacteria could count. I wouldn’t call that “grey goo”, but the threat model is a spectrum not a Boolean.
- isaacgreyed 7y ago
  I would suggest a bird would gain very little from going so fast
mr_toad 7y ago
Your immune system has to actively defend against bacteria and fungi that would quite happily eat you. Without any immune system you’d rot like a corpse.

Bacteria are the biggest argument against grey goo. They already are, they already exist, and they're already everywhere, yet things other than bacteria still exist. They've had several billion years of evolution to work on it too. They're probably in local maxima, not in any global maximum, but it's also likely that there is no single global maximum given how different the requirements are for using different energy sources.

Symmetry 7y ago
The thing I would worry about it replicators that use stronger chemical bonds than bacteria do and can eat bacteria but can't be eaten by bacteria. They would probably have to reproduce much more slowly due to higher energy requirements but if they end up eating everything in the long run it might not matter.
- DagAgren 7y ago
  If using stronger chemical bonds was advantageous, bacteria probably would be doing it already. The weak bonds is what complex chemistry and thus complex functionality possible. Stronger bonds is dead matter, and dead matter does not compete.
  - philipkglass 7y ago
    Incorporating fluorine in a molecule offers additional flexibility over the more common chlorine and bromine compounds commonly found in natural products. For example, the fluoroquinolone antibiotics are distinguished by their introduction of fluorine, yielding compounds more effective than found in nature. There are a few fluorinated natural products made by wild organisms, but they are very rare considering the elemental abundance of fluorine on Earth and the high utility found for fluorine in pharmaceutical development: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23034231 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23034231 The strong bonds formed by fluorine, and its formation of insoluble compounds with alkaline earth metals, probably explains the rarity of natural fluorinated products. The fluorinated natural products are no more "dead matter" than other poisons evolved by plants against herbivores, but it's hard to evolve out of local minima that exclude fluorinated compounds.
carapace 7y ago
I suspect that multi-cellular life is the art form of unicellular life. We are art made by microbes. (I like to think.)
gHosts 7y ago
Arguably you're just a great big pile of grey goo. ie. It's not an argument against grey goo, it's an argument the grey goo catastrophe rules everywhere and has done so for eons.

ASalazarMX 7y ago

In their defense, they're competing with organized (colored?) goo like us. We take many resources that would be gray goo otherwise.

pmoriarty 7y ago

"Bacteria already tries to do this. Leads me to believe it's impossible." This is like saying "no bird can fly faster than the speed of sound therefore flying faster than the speed of sound is impossible."

DagAgren 7y ago
Not really. Flying faster than the speed of sound without complex supporting industry is not possible. Flying faster than the speed of sound is not sustainable, it is something we have to work very hard to achieve, and the second we stopped trying very hard to do it, it would cease to happen. Grey goo, on the other hand, has to be self-sufficient and sustainable to exist.
- ben_w 7y ago
  On the other other hand, something only needs to be able to eat us to be a threat. A slightly better bacteria could count. I wouldn’t call that “grey goo”, but the threat model is a spectrum not a Boolean.
isaacgreyed 7y ago
I would suggest a bird would gain very little from going so fast

mr_toad 7y ago

Your immune system has to actively defend against bacteria and fungi that would quite happily eat you. Without any immune system you’d rot like a corpse.