5 ms·

I can respect that position. However, as a hiring manager I can see their perspective. That perspective being, "How fast are you at good enough?" Food for tho

I can respect that position. However, as a hiring manager I can see their perspective. That perspective being, "How fast are you at good enough?" Food for thought in the future. As a hiring manager I would have accepted all 5 done for 50% of all screen types, with developer comments on where you got stuck or what compromises you chose to make. In my opinion that should be made clear in take-home tests. "You are allowed to cut corners, but please comment on WHY you did so"

ryandrake 7y ago
Are you really looking for “engineers” who can half-ass a project from start to finish in 4 hours? That’s the quality bar? If I were in OP’s shoes and feeling frisky I would point out to the hiring manager that for a real world project like that it would take at least 4 hours to just gather the requirements, write a design doc, and provide an estimate. 4 hours to do design, implement, and test something properly is ridiculous. And if you aren’t focused on doing it properly, then——wait, what company are you hiring manager at? OP’s hiring company was an insurance company, not an Uber-For-Cats startup. The software he or she is eventually expected to write on the job is supposed to work.
- megous 7y ago
  An engineer should be capable of selecting the best solution for given constraints. That's a core of the job. If the constraint is 4 hours, the manager can't expect nothing but 4h quality.
  - subhobroto 7y ago
    > If the constraint is 4 hours, the manager can't expect nothing but 4h quality. Yes, but how does the manager estimate that it indeed typically should take 4 hours when the numbers he gets are: 1. From his employees who work at that company, intimately familiar with the problem domain, tools and possibly came up with the problem statement in the first place and solved it in 4 hours after thinking about and working on it with no other distractions 2. From candidates self reporting the time it took to complete the problem severely undereporting the time it took them because they want to impress the employer? Is 4 hours of focused, uninterrrupted time equal to 8 4 hours of unfocused, interrrupted time? How does the manager discover the truth?
    - megous 7y ago
      By looking at the result of 4 hours of such work, obviously. :)
twh270 7y ago
The trouble is that the determination of "fast enough" is provided by a senior developer who has 2 years of experience with that toolchain, and that's a ridiculous expectation. Given a weekend, I can come up to speed well enough on an unfamiliar toolchain to start being productive. Given a month, my productivity is going to be high enough to be good enough for any shop that isn't looking for rock stars. I interview candidates on their fundamental skills and ability to solve problems. If you're reasonably intelligent, can communicate well, and have logical and higher-order thinking skills, I don't care what tools you've used in the past. Many times I've recommended someone who has absolutely zero experience with the tools my team uses.
- subhobroto 7y ago
  > The trouble is that the determination of "fast enough" is provided by a senior developer who has 2 years of experience with that toolchain, and that's a ridiculous expectation. I dont think it's a ridiculous expectation. People rarely apply for Django jobs if all they know and have been working with is Java and have never coded a Django app. However, I think the OP is severely biased and blinded by their viewpoint as an employer and have failed to view it from the viewpoint of an employee who's so frustrated with their current employer that they are willing to put up with hours of looking for job posts, doing background research on companies, filling out forms, following up on applications, answering random trivia questions and random take home assignments at the end of their full work day > I interview candidates on their fundamental skills and ability to solve problems. If you're reasonably intelligent, can communicate well, and have logical and higher-order thinking skills, I don't care what tools you've used in the past. Many times I've recommended someone who has absolutely zero experience with the tools my team uses. This sounds so refreshing and atypical of the standard interview that I would love to give this a go. My email is my handle at gmail.com No obligation. I just want to connect with an individual who thinks deeply about real life problems.
subhobroto 7y ago
> That perspective being, "How fast are you at good enough?" That's a great question to ask. However, I now ask you if that's really the question you are indeed asking an engineer who already has a full time job with possibly a hour or longer commute and is attacking your problem at the end of the day or week. If that's the case, what you are really asking the question "How fast are you at good enough when you are extremely tired and nearly exhausted?" Either that or you're selecting for candidates who are not challenged enough at work and work at a place that does not fill the rest of their employee's time with busy work to make up for the slack so they have time left over to work on your project. You have thought of the problem from your viewpoint as an employer but have you viewed it from the viewpoint of an employee who's so frustrated with their current employer that they are willing to put up with hours of looking for job posts, doing background research on companies, filling out forms, following up on applications, answering random trivia questions and random take home assignments at the end of their full work day?

ryandrake 7y ago

Are you really looking for “engineers” who can half-ass a project from start to finish in 4 hours? That’s the quality bar? If I were in OP’s shoes and feeling frisky I would point out to the hiring manager that for a real world project like that it would take at least 4 hours to just gather the requirements, write a design doc, and provide an estimate. 4 hours to do design, implement, and test something properly is ridiculous. And if you aren’t focused on doing it properly, then——wait, what company are you hiring manager at? OP’s hiring company was an insurance company, not an Uber-For-Cats startup. The software he or she is eventually expected to write on the job is supposed to work.

megous 7y ago
An engineer should be capable of selecting the best solution for given constraints. That's a core of the job. If the constraint is 4 hours, the manager can't expect nothing but 4h quality.
- subhobroto 7y ago
  > If the constraint is 4 hours, the manager can't expect nothing but 4h quality. Yes, but how does the manager estimate that it indeed typically should take 4 hours when the numbers he gets are: 1. From his employees who work at that company, intimately familiar with the problem domain, tools and possibly came up with the problem statement in the first place and solved it in 4 hours after thinking about and working on it with no other distractions 2. From candidates self reporting the time it took to complete the problem severely undereporting the time it took them because they want to impress the employer? Is 4 hours of focused, uninterrrupted time equal to 8 4 hours of unfocused, interrrupted time? How does the manager discover the truth?
  - megous 7y ago
    By looking at the result of 4 hours of such work, obviously. :)

twh270 7y ago

The trouble is that the determination of "fast enough" is provided by a senior developer who has 2 years of experience with that toolchain, and that's a ridiculous expectation. Given a weekend, I can come up to speed well enough on an unfamiliar toolchain to start being productive. Given a month, my productivity is going to be high enough to be good enough for any shop that isn't looking for rock stars. I interview candidates on their fundamental skills and ability to solve problems. If you're reasonably intelligent, can communicate well, and have logical and higher-order thinking skills, I don't care what tools you've used in the past. Many times I've recommended someone who has absolutely zero experience with the tools my team uses.

subhobroto 7y ago
> The trouble is that the determination of "fast enough" is provided by a senior developer who has 2 years of experience with that toolchain, and that's a ridiculous expectation. I dont think it's a ridiculous expectation. People rarely apply for Django jobs if all they know and have been working with is Java and have never coded a Django app. However, I think the OP is severely biased and blinded by their viewpoint as an employer and have failed to view it from the viewpoint of an employee who's so frustrated with their current employer that they are willing to put up with hours of looking for job posts, doing background research on companies, filling out forms, following up on applications, answering random trivia questions and random take home assignments at the end of their full work day > I interview candidates on their fundamental skills and ability to solve problems. If you're reasonably intelligent, can communicate well, and have logical and higher-order thinking skills, I don't care what tools you've used in the past. Many times I've recommended someone who has absolutely zero experience with the tools my team uses. This sounds so refreshing and atypical of the standard interview that I would love to give this a go. My email is my handle at gmail.com No obligation. I just want to connect with an individual who thinks deeply about real life problems.

subhobroto 7y ago

> That perspective being, "How fast are you at good enough?" That's a great question to ask. However, I now ask you if that's really the question you are indeed asking an engineer who already has a full time job with possibly a hour or longer commute and is attacking your problem at the end of the day or week. If that's the case, what you are really asking the question "How fast are you at good enough when you are extremely tired and nearly exhausted?" Either that or you're selecting for candidates who are not challenged enough at work and work at a place that does not fill the rest of their employee's time with busy work to make up for the slack so they have time left over to work on your project. You have thought of the problem from your viewpoint as an employer but have you viewed it from the viewpoint of an employee who's so frustrated with their current employer that they are willing to put up with hours of looking for job posts, doing background research on companies, filling out forms, following up on applications, answering random trivia questions and random take home assignments at the end of their full work day?