5 ms·

I hope not. Unlike car license plates, if you own a plane what you're doing with it is very much in the publics interest to know, especially if you don't want p

by ATsch 7y ago

I hope not. Unlike car license plates, if you own a plane what you're doing with it is very much in the publics interest to know, especially if you don't want people to know. They can have their privacy while they aren't flying polluting multi-million dollar planes through the country and above our buildings.

dvtrn 7y ago
Private Crop dusting pilots flying over cornfields in southern Nebraska aren’t flying over your buildings mate.
- ATsch 7y ago
  Private Crop dusing pilots aren't trying to hide themselves from the airplane maps, so this is irrelevant to the point.
  - dvtrn 7y ago
    I would beg to differ and could probably accurately guess that several ag pilots I know would as well.
  - tjohns 7y ago
    I'd say they're more likely to be hiding themselves from the map than your average commercial flight. Pilots of small aircraft are just as sensitive about giving up their privacy as anyone else. Would you want your name, address, and position broadcast on the internet every time you get in your car?
    - dvtrn 7y ago
      Not just sensitive about their privacy, but there is a particularly ornery set of opinions among rural pilots regarding the government “telling me how to tend my own farm” which I think is at the root of what we see at the surface as being “privacy concerns”. So when someone says these types of aviators aren’t trying to hide themselves I’m highly skeptical on just how well-versed the speaker is with the issues and perspectives this class people have with more and more expensive operating requirements being put on them with diminishing returns for their compliance. Then again, this perspective isn't in line with "rich moguls and their private personal jets" and represents a blue-collar voice that gets left out of discussions in this community with a frustrating frequency; so I'm really not surprised, either. Hell go talk to some ground-based truckers how they feel about having their routes tracked by logistics companies who book them for loads. There’s videos all over YouTube from long haul truckers complaining about faceless entities demanding they install tracking systems or download GPS enabled apps and the constant complaint is “don’t tell me how to drive my truck" These operators want autonomy.
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  Well put. I also don't want my location broadcast as I move around on foot, or in my car, so why would I want to be tracked in the air? And if you don't like being tracked, what makes you think that others want to be tracked all the time?
  - ATsch 7y ago
    Do you own an personal aeroplane with ads-b transmitter? Do you think it's likely you're going to own one anytime soon? This isn't the private data of your neighbor. This is either data from corporations which, despite being people in some senses, don't have any privacy rights, or individuals so rich that what they're doing with planes that they really want to keep secret should be everyone's concern.
    - tjohns 7y ago
      I think you have an incorrect understanding of who owns planes. You'd be surprised how many of your neighbors own or rent aircraft at your local GA airport. It's not just something multi-millionaires do. In many cases it's cheaper than owning a Tesla.
      - dvtrn 7y ago
        Heck, one can buy a sport plane[0] for less than the MSRP of a brand new Honda. [0] http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/ch650/650-price.html http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/ch650/650-price.html
        selectodude 7y ago
        A sport plane sans engine. An aircraft engine is like $30,000.
    - HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
      ... I know of several people nearby (relatively speaking, same metropolitan-ish area) with pretty middle-class salaries and jobs who own airplanes- not jets or anything, just smaller prop planes (like itty bitty Cessna things) and a couple people with ultralights they can land in their (fairly spacious) backyards. Meh? As a passenger, I don't want to be tracked the way we do cattle. Maybe I'm missing the point here, but more tracking feels more invasive and more likely to lead to abuse of said information (information imbalances equate to power, too!) and I don't want any more of that than is absolutely positively unavoidable.
tjohns 7y ago
First, airplanes come in a lot of different sizes, and many don't cost anywhere near millions. A quick search online shows that you can find a used Cessna 172 starting at $35k - and is about the same size as a car. Second, just because an airplane is over your building, doesn't mean it's going to crash into it. Even in an emergency, airplanes can keep gliding. A car is more likely to hit you while you're on the sidewalk - does that mean you get to know the name and address of every person driving local streets? Third, I don't see how pollution has anything to do with privacy. I can see an argument for being able to report an airplane doing something unsafe. But that's literally what the FAA exists for, and they have ways to look up who's flying an aircraft — anonymous or not. I don't see a good argument to releasing owners' names and addresses publicly so people can do law enforcement themselves.
- ATsch 7y ago
  I brought up pollution to point out that, although certainly worth it, society is paying a pricy to let people fly aeroplanes around as they wish. Since people owning planes are not just regular citizens, society should hence have some level of visibility into what people are doing with them. Similar things apply to e.g. Amateur Radio. We've given people a big chunk of spectrum, and in exchange we expect transparency on what it's being used for. With few planes being owned by individuals, the case should be even stronger for aeroplanes, since the privacy argument applies less.
  - tjohns 7y ago
    Personally, requiring a public address for amateur radio is a big problem and I'd argue needs to be changed. It makes you a target for doxing and swatting, and causes an unending amount of spam mail that you can't unsubscribe from. It made sense in the older days when people routinely mailed paper QSL cards. The FCC also relies on amateur radio operators to self-police each other, which is relatively unique as far as enforcement goes (see: ARRL official observers - but even in that case, if you do something sufficiently wrong then the FCC will get involved and could look up your address). On the other hand... QSL cards are pretty cool.
schmookeeg 7y ago
You can track my plane when I can track your car. Both are capable of nefarious deeds -- as is a bicycle, backpack, or hoodie. The only thing special about private aircraft is people picturing some high-dollar gulfstream, and aiming a bit of jealousy at the people who own and operate them. Some of us fly planes that cost less than your Tesla and would prefer not to be painted with that broad of a brush.
- amatecha 7y ago
  I mean, barring legal limitations I'm unaware of, you're surely free to set up your own ALPR ("automatic license-plate reader"), set it up aimed out your window/balcony and collate the data with other fellow ALPR-constructing individuals on a website like the OP.
  - schmookeeg 7y ago
    Certainly. And I doubt I would annoy many people due to locality, odds of them simply not driving past the thing, and of course, only a few people knowing I'm doing plate scanning and posting it online. This is a government program, mandate even, with easily-downloaded data feeds. My 'you can track my plane when...' was hyperbole for the moment. ADS-B compliance cost me a few thousand dollars. Getting off of the public 'radar' with my plane is on my 'get to it eventually' list of things to do. Somewhere around refinishing my deck and swapping my winter tires back for all-season. I'm bothered philosophically, but my actions say I'm not that bothered. But to your point, if the government required all car owners to pop a GPS tag onto their honda, at a cost to them of a few hundred bucks, then gave the 24/7 surveillance data to the public freely, I can see a few noses being tweaked for a few different reasons. Edit -- I guess this thread is getting too deep for more replies. Aircraft have registration numbers painted on their side. That's the analogy to license plates which are publicly visible, and systems do exist to video-capture those numbers (usually for billing purposes -- Vector is one I know of). ADS-B is automatic reporting/broadcasting by the aircraft itself. It is collected and distributed by government, and it is also capture-able by anyone with a receiver. I am not aware of any cars which broadcast their movements 24/7 to government, nor any initiative to make that happen at car-owner expense, nor the ability for one to capture that data freely on radio bands. But I think the 'of interest to society' argument against cars is equally strong. Which was the original idea I was replying to. :)
nilkn 7y ago
Why do you need to know exactly who is in a plane? How does that help you at all? What do you do with this information to improve your life?
- jjwiseman 7y ago
  This data directly led to the discovery of a large scale, secret aerial surveillance program by the FBI, which led to Congress demanding information about the legal and privacy issues: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/congress-didnt-notice-the-fbi-creating-a-small-air-force-for-surveillance/395147/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/congres...

by ATsch 7y ago

dvtrn 7y ago

Private Crop dusting pilots flying over cornfields in southern Nebraska aren’t flying over your buildings mate.

ATsch 7y ago
Private Crop dusing pilots aren't trying to hide themselves from the airplane maps, so this is irrelevant to the point.
- dvtrn 7y ago
  I would beg to differ and could probably accurately guess that several ag pilots I know would as well.
- tjohns 7y ago
  I'd say they're more likely to be hiding themselves from the map than your average commercial flight. Pilots of small aircraft are just as sensitive about giving up their privacy as anyone else. Would you want your name, address, and position broadcast on the internet every time you get in your car?
  - dvtrn 7y ago
    Not just sensitive about their privacy, but there is a particularly ornery set of opinions among rural pilots regarding the government “telling me how to tend my own farm” which I think is at the root of what we see at the surface as being “privacy concerns”. So when someone says these types of aviators aren’t trying to hide themselves I’m highly skeptical on just how well-versed the speaker is with the issues and perspectives this class people have with more and more expensive operating requirements being put on them with diminishing returns for their compliance. Then again, this perspective isn't in line with "rich moguls and their private personal jets" and represents a blue-collar voice that gets left out of discussions in this community with a frustrating frequency; so I'm really not surprised, either. Hell go talk to some ground-based truckers how they feel about having their routes tracked by logistics companies who book them for loads. There’s videos all over YouTube from long haul truckers complaining about faceless entities demanding they install tracking systems or download GPS enabled apps and the constant complaint is “don’t tell me how to drive my truck" These operators want autonomy.
HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
Well put. I also don't want my location broadcast as I move around on foot, or in my car, so why would I want to be tracked in the air? And if you don't like being tracked, what makes you think that others want to be tracked all the time?
- ATsch 7y ago
  Do you own an personal aeroplane with ads-b transmitter? Do you think it's likely you're going to own one anytime soon? This isn't the private data of your neighbor. This is either data from corporations which, despite being people in some senses, don't have any privacy rights, or individuals so rich that what they're doing with planes that they really want to keep secret should be everyone's concern.
  - tjohns 7y ago
    I think you have an incorrect understanding of who owns planes. You'd be surprised how many of your neighbors own or rent aircraft at your local GA airport. It's not just something multi-millionaires do. In many cases it's cheaper than owning a Tesla.
    - dvtrn 7y ago
      Heck, one can buy a sport plane[0] for less than the MSRP of a brand new Honda. [0] http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/ch650/650-price.html http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/ch650/650-price.html
      - selectodude 7y ago
        A sport plane sans engine. An aircraft engine is like $30,000.
  - HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
    ... I know of several people nearby (relatively speaking, same metropolitan-ish area) with pretty middle-class salaries and jobs who own airplanes- not jets or anything, just smaller prop planes (like itty bitty Cessna things) and a couple people with ultralights they can land in their (fairly spacious) backyards. Meh? As a passenger, I don't want to be tracked the way we do cattle. Maybe I'm missing the point here, but more tracking feels more invasive and more likely to lead to abuse of said information (information imbalances equate to power, too!) and I don't want any more of that than is absolutely positively unavoidable.

tjohns 7y ago

First, airplanes come in a lot of different sizes, and many don't cost anywhere near millions. A quick search online shows that you can find a used Cessna 172 starting at $35k - and is about the same size as a car. Second, just because an airplane is over your building, doesn't mean it's going to crash into it. Even in an emergency, airplanes can keep gliding. A car is more likely to hit you while you're on the sidewalk - does that mean you get to know the name and address of every person driving local streets? Third, I don't see how pollution has anything to do with privacy. I can see an argument for being able to report an airplane doing something unsafe. But that's literally what the FAA exists for, and they have ways to look up who's flying an aircraft — anonymous or not. I don't see a good argument to releasing owners' names and addresses publicly so people can do law enforcement themselves.

ATsch 7y ago
I brought up pollution to point out that, although certainly worth it, society is paying a pricy to let people fly aeroplanes around as they wish. Since people owning planes are not just regular citizens, society should hence have some level of visibility into what people are doing with them. Similar things apply to e.g. Amateur Radio. We've given people a big chunk of spectrum, and in exchange we expect transparency on what it's being used for. With few planes being owned by individuals, the case should be even stronger for aeroplanes, since the privacy argument applies less.
- tjohns 7y ago
  Personally, requiring a public address for amateur radio is a big problem and I'd argue needs to be changed. It makes you a target for doxing and swatting, and causes an unending amount of spam mail that you can't unsubscribe from. It made sense in the older days when people routinely mailed paper QSL cards. The FCC also relies on amateur radio operators to self-police each other, which is relatively unique as far as enforcement goes (see: ARRL official observers - but even in that case, if you do something sufficiently wrong then the FCC will get involved and could look up your address). On the other hand... QSL cards are pretty cool.

schmookeeg 7y ago

You can track my plane when I can track your car. Both are capable of nefarious deeds -- as is a bicycle, backpack, or hoodie. The only thing special about private aircraft is people picturing some high-dollar gulfstream, and aiming a bit of jealousy at the people who own and operate them. Some of us fly planes that cost less than your Tesla and would prefer not to be painted with that broad of a brush.

amatecha 7y ago
I mean, barring legal limitations I'm unaware of, you're surely free to set up your own ALPR ("automatic license-plate reader"), set it up aimed out your window/balcony and collate the data with other fellow ALPR-constructing individuals on a website like the OP.
- schmookeeg 7y ago
  Certainly. And I doubt I would annoy many people due to locality, odds of them simply not driving past the thing, and of course, only a few people knowing I'm doing plate scanning and posting it online. This is a government program, mandate even, with easily-downloaded data feeds. My 'you can track my plane when...' was hyperbole for the moment. ADS-B compliance cost me a few thousand dollars. Getting off of the public 'radar' with my plane is on my 'get to it eventually' list of things to do. Somewhere around refinishing my deck and swapping my winter tires back for all-season. I'm bothered philosophically, but my actions say I'm not that bothered. But to your point, if the government required all car owners to pop a GPS tag onto their honda, at a cost to them of a few hundred bucks, then gave the 24/7 surveillance data to the public freely, I can see a few noses being tweaked for a few different reasons. Edit -- I guess this thread is getting too deep for more replies. Aircraft have registration numbers painted on their side. That's the analogy to license plates which are publicly visible, and systems do exist to video-capture those numbers (usually for billing purposes -- Vector is one I know of). ADS-B is automatic reporting/broadcasting by the aircraft itself. It is collected and distributed by government, and it is also capture-able by anyone with a receiver. I am not aware of any cars which broadcast their movements 24/7 to government, nor any initiative to make that happen at car-owner expense, nor the ability for one to capture that data freely on radio bands. But I think the 'of interest to society' argument against cars is equally strong. Which was the original idea I was replying to. :)

nilkn 7y ago

Why do you need to know exactly who is in a plane? How does that help you at all? What do you do with this information to improve your life?

jjwiseman 7y ago
This data directly led to the discovery of a large scale, secret aerial surveillance program by the FBI, which led to Congress demanding information about the legal and privacy issues: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/congress-didnt-notice-the-fbi-creating-a-small-air-force-for-surveillance/395147/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/congres...