4 ms·

That’s already illegal and was punished accordingly, so no need for a union. Labor laws are a better tool.

wbronitsky 7y ago
This is a pretty specious argument. Murder is illegal and punished severely, yet we still try and avoid getting killed. I would posit that it is the same here; wage fixing is bad and punished, but wouldn't it be better if we had a faster mechanism for guaranteeing equity in treatment by corporations?
- lawnchair_larry 7y ago
  No. That’s more like saying we should join a union so we can put rules in place that say employers aren’t allowed to murder us. It’s already illegal, and people who don’t care about the law won’t care about a union agreement either. The same court battle and settlement process would result. Or worse, everyone would be forced to strike, and all employees are legally barred from working.
  - claudeganon 7y ago
    > No. That’s more like saying we should join a union so we can put rules in place that say employers aren’t allowed to murder us. I love that people are so ignorant of the history of labor struggle in the US that they don’t know that people actually did form unions to prevent their employers from murdering them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_...
    - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
      Before you call anybody ignorant, maybe stop and think about the last time a tech employer murdered people. That historical factoid is completely irrelevant when discussing solutions for today. Guess what, we don’t need to wear chain mail while riding a horse to work anymore either. Progress!
      - claudeganon 7y ago
        > Before you call anybody ignorant, maybe stop and think about the last time a tech employer murdered people. Does the YouTube shooting count? Google only sent real time security updates to full time employees, leaving contractors to fend for themselves, even though they’re now a majority contractor workforce: https://medium.com/@GoogleWalkout/invisible-no-longer-googles-shadow-workforce-speaks-up-9ea04b7bcc41 https://medium.com/@GoogleWalkout/invisible-no-longer-google... And this event certainly has pushed labor organizing at the company. See also worker deaths at Amazon: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/17/amazon-warehouse-worker-deaths https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/17/amazon-wa... It doesn’t seem at all irrelevant to me that companies have a long history of compromising workers safety, unto their deaths, and especially when workers don’t organize to defend themselves. The progress you celebrate is because people before you did this en masse, so perhaps it is a good idea to be a little more respectful and cognizant of that history.
      - wbronitsky 7y ago
        Amazon workers have died in Amazon warehouses. Seems like that "factoid" might be more relevant than you want it to be. I still don't understand why you are arguing that unions aren't effective. What skin do you have in the management game?
Apocryphon 7y ago
> A final approval hearing was held on July 9, 2015.[22] On Wednesday September 2, 2015, Judge Lucy H. Koh signed an order granting Motion for Final Approval of Class Action Settlement. The settlement website stated that Adobe, Apple, Google, and Intel has reached a settlement of $415 million and other companies settled for $20 million. > In June 2014, Judge Lucy Koh expressed concern that the settlement may not be a good one for the plaintiffs. Michael Devine, one of the plaintiffs, said the [previous] settlement is unjust. In a letter he wrote to the judge he said the settlement represents only one-tenth of the $3 billion in compensation the 64,000 workers could have made if the defendants had not colluded.
klyrs 7y ago
> Labor laws are a better tool. Historically, unions have largely been responsible for advancing the state of labor laws. Individuals can't afford the legal representation to win precedent-setting cases against large corporations. By pooling their resources, collectives can bring a gun to the gunfight. Strong unions can similarly match lobbying efforts when corporations attempt to weaken labor laws through legislation.

This is a pretty specious argument. Murder is illegal and punished severely, yet we still try and avoid getting killed. I would posit that it is the same here; wage fixing is bad and punished, but wouldn't it be better if we had a faster mechanism for guaranteeing equity in treatment by corporations?

lawnchair_larry 7y ago
No. That’s more like saying we should join a union so we can put rules in place that say employers aren’t allowed to murder us. It’s already illegal, and people who don’t care about the law won’t care about a union agreement either. The same court battle and settlement process would result. Or worse, everyone would be forced to strike, and all employees are legally barred from working.
- claudeganon 7y ago
  > No. That’s more like saying we should join a union so we can put rules in place that say employers aren’t allowed to murder us. I love that people are so ignorant of the history of labor struggle in the US that they don’t know that people actually did form unions to prevent their employers from murdering them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_...
  - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
    Before you call anybody ignorant, maybe stop and think about the last time a tech employer murdered people. That historical factoid is completely irrelevant when discussing solutions for today. Guess what, we don’t need to wear chain mail while riding a horse to work anymore either. Progress!
    - claudeganon 7y ago
      > Before you call anybody ignorant, maybe stop and think about the last time a tech employer murdered people. Does the YouTube shooting count? Google only sent real time security updates to full time employees, leaving contractors to fend for themselves, even though they’re now a majority contractor workforce: https://medium.com/@GoogleWalkout/invisible-no-longer-googles-shadow-workforce-speaks-up-9ea04b7bcc41 https://medium.com/@GoogleWalkout/invisible-no-longer-google... And this event certainly has pushed labor organizing at the company. See also worker deaths at Amazon: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/17/amazon-warehouse-worker-deaths https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/17/amazon-wa... It doesn’t seem at all irrelevant to me that companies have a long history of compromising workers safety, unto their deaths, and especially when workers don’t organize to defend themselves. The progress you celebrate is because people before you did this en masse, so perhaps it is a good idea to be a little more respectful and cognizant of that history.
    - wbronitsky 7y ago
      Amazon workers have died in Amazon warehouses. Seems like that "factoid" might be more relevant than you want it to be. I still don't understand why you are arguing that unions aren't effective. What skin do you have in the management game?

Apocryphon 7y ago

> A final approval hearing was held on July 9, 2015.[22] On Wednesday September 2, 2015, Judge Lucy H. Koh signed an order granting Motion for Final Approval of Class Action Settlement. The settlement website stated that Adobe, Apple, Google, and Intel has reached a settlement of $415 million and other companies settled for $20 million. > In June 2014, Judge Lucy Koh expressed concern that the settlement may not be a good one for the plaintiffs. Michael Devine, one of the plaintiffs, said the [previous] settlement is unjust. In a letter he wrote to the judge he said the settlement represents only one-tenth of the $3 billion in compensation the 64,000 workers could have made if the defendants had not colluded.

klyrs 7y ago

> Labor laws are a better tool. Historically, unions have largely been responsible for advancing the state of labor laws. Individuals can't afford the legal representation to win precedent-setting cases against large corporations. By pooling their resources, collectives can bring a gun to the gunfight. Strong unions can similarly match lobbying efforts when corporations attempt to weaken labor laws through legislation.