8 ms·

End torture and medical neglect of Julian Assange

72 points by ge0rg 7y ago

MaupitiBlue 7y ago
Man kills parents and begs for mercy because he’s an orphan.
- hinoki 7y ago
  Who are the parents in this analogy?
  - lolc 7y ago
    Nations probably? So Assange is abused because he exposed the cheating of his parents? I don't know, doesn't work well the analogy for me. Or maybe too well.
- lolc 7y ago
  Commenter on Hacker News sees nothing wrong in torture when it hits the ones that had it coming.
  - vkou 7y ago
    How is he currently being tortured in prison? TFA does not answer this question.
    - tartoran 7y ago
      I think it hints at psychological torture
      - vkou 7y ago
        You'd figure that if he was being tortured in prison, TFA could actually say so, and we wouldn't need to try to glean hints. Yet, if you follow the references [1], you'll see a fantastic sleight of hand. [2] Assange spent 7 years in self-imposed exile in the embassy. Throughout this period of time, torture experts have determined that he is showing the psychological symptoms of a torture victim. In April, he was imprisoned. Torture experts continued visiting him, and have continued observing that he was showing the psychological symptoms of a torture victim. Shockingly, neither prison, nor his conviction for skipping bail make him better. No evidence that anything about the condition of his imprisonment constitutes torture has been provided. Instead, people point at him, and say that he has clearly been traumatized. That is true - but all evidence points to the trauma being inflicted during his self-imposed exile. [1] https://medium.com/@doctors4assange/concerns-of-medical-doctors-about-the-plight-of-mr-julian-assange-ffb09a5dd588 https://medium.com/@doctors4assange/concerns-of-medical-doct... [2] The sleight of hand, of course, is blaming his current imprisonment on medical problems that he picked up during his self-imposed exile.
        93po 7y ago
        Did you want some sort of torture-detecting-machine where Assange puts in his fingers and the machine beeps loudly with flashing lights? Doctors have observed, reported, documented, and endorsed that he is being tortured. I don't know what else you could possibly want.
        vkou 7y ago
        No, I'd like some evidence for one of these two claims: 1. Prisoners in Belmarsh are routinely tortured. 2. Prisoners in Belmarsh are not routinely tortured, but Assange in particular is being singled out for a surprise helping of torture in Belmarsh. Neither TFA, nor its sources provide any evidence for either of those two things. What they do provide is evidence for the much less incendiary, and less surprising claim of: 1. Assange has not gotten any better since his self-imposed exile. > Doctors have observed, reported, documented, and endorsed that he is being tortured. No, they haven't. If you disagree, please cite sources. Ones that don't do the bait-and-switch of pointing at the medical problems he acquired during his pre-incarceration living conditions, and using that to 'prove' the entirely unrelated claim that he is being tortured in Belmarsh. I strongly doubt that such sources exist, because if they did, publications like TFA would directly, and unambiguously cite them, instead of dancing around the truth.
        93po 7y ago
        Assange is a political prisoner and clearly his treatment and situation is different from the rest, so a comparison isn't helpful. The source is the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. It's linked in the very top of TFA. Sorry you don't like the truth and are yourself trying to dance around it
        vkou 7y ago
        Why does it matter if he's a political prisoner, or a shoplifter? He's either being tortured, or he's not. > The source is the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. I have read TFA, I have read its sources, and I see no evidence that points to him currently being tortured, as I have said three times in this thread. Is there a specific passage that you would like to highlight?
    - ge0rg 7y ago
      It is our opinion that Mr Assange requires urgent expert medical assessment of both his physical and psychological state of health. Any medical treatment indicated should be administered in a properly equipped and expertly staffed university teaching hospital (tertiary care). Were such urgent assessment and treatment not to take place, we have real concerns, on the evidence currently available, that Mr Assange could die in prison. The medical situation is thereby urgent. There is no time to lose.
      - three_seagrass 7y ago
        It's based on observation in court only. Also, Assange's health was in strong decline before he was released from the Embassy, which could be a factor: https://medium.com/@doctors4assange/concerns-of-medical-doctors-about-the-plight-of-mr-julian-assange-ffb09a5dd588 https://medium.com/@doctors4assange/concerns-of-medical-doct... I'm not saying there isn't torture happening, just that there isn't much evidence to the claim that he's being tortured right now.
    - KerryJones 7y ago
      Does it matter? He's limping, pale, unable to answer basic questions. "Oh, it's only waterboarding, that's not real torture..." Torture is torture.
    - lastres0rt 7y ago
      The article implies that the 7 years he spent in the embassy prior to his arrest amounted to torture. IMO, at best we could dub his deterioration in the embassy as "self-inflicted", or more accurately institutional neglect on the part of the governments involved.
    - cjhveal 7y ago
      "... prior to his detention in Belmarsh prison in conditions amounting to solitary confinement, spent almost 7 years restricted to a few rooms in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London. Here, he had been deprived of fresh air, sunlight, the ability to move and exercise freely, and access to adequate medical care." Extensive solitary confinement is criticized as a form psychological torture. If you're familiar with the US detention system, the treatment of Assange might seem pretty commonplace, the international community generally considers this a form of torture.
      - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
        Which, one, is Assange's fault for staying the embassy rather than facing the court system. But you could give him that if he truly believed that there was a conspiracy against him and that he couldn't get actual justice. Then, two, it's Ecuador's fault that he's confined to a few rooms, can't exercise, can't get sunlight, etc. I mean, doesn't their embassy have windows somewhere? Everyone tries to make this Britain's fault somehow. I can't see it.
- totiousti 7y ago
  it is funny to see how public opinion shifted once the narrative of him being a russian agent having helped trump appeared. People hate trump more than they hate being lied to
  - 93po 7y ago
    It's ridiculous that anyone can have anything but abundant thanks for this man. He shows us the war crimes, lying, cheating, and hypocrisy of our nations' leaders. And yet people want to see him imprisoned or killed because it happened to be against their political preferences. Awful.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to Hacker News. "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
DubiousPusher 7y ago
Maybe this man's situation can call attention to the fact that this is the standard of care for most people in jail or prison in America.
- freeli 7y ago
  Except that he's being held in the UK, so I'm not sure what the point is of your criticism of the US prison system.
  - DubiousPusher 7y ago
    My point is that a lot of U.S. citizens will be reading this and if they are feeling a healthy dose is concern for Mr. Assange they should be aware that his essentially the fate of many of their countrymen.
    - freeli 7y ago
      How is comparing what Assange is (reportedly) experiencing in a UK prison in any way valid for criticizing the US prison system? I know we're supposed to assume the least objectionable interpretation of someone's comments, but this really sounds like a weird pivot designed to push some sort of anti-US agenda, when there's NOTHING related to the conditions of the US prison system even relevant to this particular discussion.
      - DubiousPusher 7y ago
        Health care during incarceration is a problem most places in the world. As far as I can tell in the U.K. and Europe it is generally better. But what Mr. Assange is experiencing in the U.K. is pretty comparable to the U.S. If Americans are going to bother to fret over his situation you should probably have a similar or greater level of concern for what is going on in your own country which you actually have some hope changing. To have special concern for this one person is just trading on fame, you might as well be following tabloids.
fckuuumods 7y ago
It's so awesome how moderators allow for a free and open discussion on HN
- dang 7y ago
  Users flagged this post. Moderators didn't touch it, or even see it until now. Given that there was a large Assange thread yesterday (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22351183 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22351183), and a large thread on the Assange/torture question a few weeks ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22201381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22201381), I don't think this letter contains significant-enough new information to support a solid HN discussion. This topic is divisive enough as it is, and in the absence of significant new information, threads tend to degrade even faster than usual.
xwdv 7y ago
Yes, end the torture and medical neglect by simply ending his life. Julian Assange will never be a free man again and there’s nothing left for him to contribute as some rehabilitated member of society. Just kill him off, his story is over.
- dang 7y ago
  It's not ok to post like this to HN, and we ban accounts that do it, so please don't. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
jancsika 7y ago
My uncle was a machinist in a large U.S. company back in the early 2000s when the employees decided to end the torture and medical neglect of Julian Assange. According to him all it ended up doing was stifling innovation and rewarding mediocre lifers over the high performing employees.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jorge-d 7y ago
I'm quite shoked by the level of the comments regarding Assange. Whatever you think about the character is irrelevant. Law should be the basis on any action taken against him, whether he's a-hole or not. Now you can argue on whether his actions were legal (I mean, he broke US law but he's not US citizen nor living in the US so that's debatable). However there is ZERO legal basis on having someone not being taken care of while in custody.
- mullingitover 7y ago
  > However there is ZERO legal basis on having someone not being taken care of while in custody. Most of the health issues in question here arose when he was not in custody, but rather in self-imposed exile in the embassy. He could've walked out at any point and been treated, but that would've meant accepting the consequences for the laws he'd broken.
  - 93po 7y ago
    Most of the health issues around him are being raised as a result of his stay in prison, not his asylum in the embassy.
    - mullingitover 7y ago
      Yeah, no. Read that article again, and the linked Medium post they're talking about. They're talking about health issues during his voluntary exile at the embassy. From this article: > On Nov 22, 2019, we, a group of more than 60 medical doctors, wrote to the UK Home Secretary to express our serious concerns about the physical and mental health of Julian Assange.[1]In our letter,[1] we documented a history of denial of access to health care and prolonged psychological torture. I have no sympathy for this group's claims, because he was absolutely not denied medical care. He had an outstanding arrest warrant that was completely valid, and he chose to accept the consequences of skipping bail. It's like a child running away from home because he didn't want to face prosecution for sexual assault, and then crying to the press that his parents aren't taking care of him while he's living in a flophouse. [1] https://medium.com/@doctorseh4assange/concerns-of-medical-doctors-about-the-plight-of-mr-julian-assange-ffb09a5dd588 https://medium.com/@doctorseh4assange/concerns-of-medical-do...
geekpowa 7y ago
“Mr Assange showed all symptoms typical for prolonged exposure to psychological torture, including extreme stress, chronic anxiety and intense psychological trauma.” Emphasis mine. His terrible mental health condition is not under dispute. But I am disputing the use of the word torture, as opposed to 'symptoms typical for'. Torture (noun): the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or in order to force them to do or say something. While he was in the embassy he was fugitive and definitely under duress to turn himself in, no doubt. What rights and privileges is someone entitled to as a fugitive in comparison to their rights and privileges once in custody? My bias is anti Assange, for some common reasons some people are anti, I try to keep an open mind and be a compassionate person and feel compassion for his terrible mental health circumstances, yet articles like this, I read it with a pile of skepticism and just feels weak, lacking in evidence, overstating things and drawing inferences I think are poorly supported.
- 93po 7y ago
  It is very lacking in empathy to refer to him as a fugitive rather than someone in asylum. Any fugitive status he may have had has been proven to be political in nature.
  - geekpowa 7y ago
    "Any fugitive status he may have had has been proven to be political in nature." Proven you say? Things asylum seekers typically say: "If Obama grants Manning clemency Assange will agree to US extradition despite clear unconstitutionality of DoJ case"
    - 93po 7y ago
      Yes, proven. I don't know what relevance your quote has.
nemo 7y ago
I really do not like Julian Assange as a person, I do not admire his work. He's a fraud, a con-man, and might also be a criminal. But a critical measure of a society is how equal justice is for all, even those hated by society. Tolerance of the abuse of prisoners or torture is a grave moral failure no matter who the perp is. Maybe the docs are all duped by the scammers around Assange, but it looks pretty abusive not to transfer him to a hospital.
- 93po 7y ago
  Please post substantial evidence that Assange has conned or defrauded anyone. Wikileaks has a 100% track record.
  - nemo 7y ago
    No matter how many of Assange's lies I enumerate, his fans just brush them off since they don't want to see the truth about Assange - he's simpler when he's a good guy rather than an abusive narcissist. But google 'assange deceit' and related and you'll find plenty. Wikileaks has been working through cutouts with Russian intelligence for a while so the track record is pretty problematic. https://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/09/09/wikileaks-hid-syrian-deposits-in-russian-bank https://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/09/09/wikileaks-hi...
    - 93po 7y ago
      Russian connection is conspiracy theory and there's no evidence. Go Google "flat Earth" and you'll find a lot of results too
      - nemo 7y ago
        I've investigated the evidence quite carefully. The article I linked to refers to some very damning evidence for one case. The Mueller investigation found solid evidence of WL forwarding DNC docs collected by Russian intelligence, and at this point security researcher expert consensus is that Russia was the perp and WL the front. Wikileaks biases also show in who they target and what they ignore. They've repeatedly downplayed leaks that are damaging to the Kremlin.
Seenso 7y ago
Honestly, stuff like this just debases the word "torture." Waterboarding is clearly torture. Undergoing prolonged periods of solitary confinement while in detention is arguably torture. However, choosing to avoid needed medical care during an attempt to flee law enforcement is definitely in the "not torture" category. It's self-inflicted harm. Self-inflicted harm doesn't elicit the same kind of moral outrage that true torture does. These efforts seem to me to be an attempt to exploit that moral outrage in order to benefit a particular person. If successful, the lack of clarity that introduces just creates extra doubt in cases of true torture that blunts the outrage. Here are some similar cases: After conducting a bunch of bombings, Eric Rudolph fled the FBI by living in a forest for years, feeding himself by gathering acorns and dumpster diving [1]. His choice to do that to himself is similar to what Assange did, and was not torture, either. Rudolph's brother, bizarrely, decided to cut off his own hand with a saw to protest the FBI's treatment of his brother and its surveillance of his family [2]. If the FBI had done that to him, it'd have been a gruesome case of torture, but since he did it to himself, it's definitely not torture. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph [2] http://www-cgi.cnn.com/US/9803/09/briefs.pm/rudolph.amputation/ http://www-cgi.cnn.com/US/9803/09/briefs.pm/rudolph.amputati...
- 93po 7y ago
  The very real and substantial claims about torture and mostly about his time in prison in the UK - not his time on the asylum, though I would still say that his asylum treatment was inhumane and violated his rights.
  - Seenso 7y ago
    > The very real and substantial claims about torture and mostly about his time in prison in the UK - not his time on the asylum Can you give details of the actual practices of torture alleged here? Scanning this and a few other things, the only details I'm seeing are complaints of how he was treated in the embassy (which IMHO were self-inflicted), and some nonspecific observations that he looks like he's in worse health now that he's actually gone to jail. > I would still say that his asylum treatment was inhumane and violated his rights. I can't see how that could be without essentially creating a lawless situation, where law enforcement is bizarrely tasked with supporting fugitives and assisting with their escape.

72 points by ge0rg 7y ago

MaupitiBlue 7y ago

Man kills parents and begs for mercy because he’s an orphan.

hinoki 7y ago
Who are the parents in this analogy?
- lolc 7y ago
  Nations probably? So Assange is abused because he exposed the cheating of his parents? I don't know, doesn't work well the analogy for me. Or maybe too well.
lolc 7y ago
Commenter on Hacker News sees nothing wrong in torture when it hits the ones that had it coming.
- vkou 7y ago
  How is he currently being tortured in prison? TFA does not answer this question.
  - tartoran 7y ago
    I think it hints at psychological torture
    - vkou 7y ago
      You'd figure that if he was being tortured in prison, TFA could actually say so, and we wouldn't need to try to glean hints. Yet, if you follow the references [1], you'll see a fantastic sleight of hand. [2] Assange spent 7 years in self-imposed exile in the embassy. Throughout this period of time, torture experts have determined that he is showing the psychological symptoms of a torture victim. In April, he was imprisoned. Torture experts continued visiting him, and have continued observing that he was showing the psychological symptoms of a torture victim. Shockingly, neither prison, nor his conviction for skipping bail make him better. No evidence that anything about the condition of his imprisonment constitutes torture has been provided. Instead, people point at him, and say that he has clearly been traumatized. That is true - but all evidence points to the trauma being inflicted during his self-imposed exile. [1] https://medium.com/@doctors4assange/concerns-of-medical-doctors-about-the-plight-of-mr-julian-assange-ffb09a5dd588 https://medium.com/@doctors4assange/concerns-of-medical-doct... [2] The sleight of hand, of course, is blaming his current imprisonment on medical problems that he picked up during his self-imposed exile.
      - 93po 7y ago
        Did you want some sort of torture-detecting-machine where Assange puts in his fingers and the machine beeps loudly with flashing lights? Doctors have observed, reported, documented, and endorsed that he is being tortured. I don't know what else you could possibly want.
        vkou 7y ago
        No, I'd like some evidence for one of these two claims: 1. Prisoners in Belmarsh are routinely tortured. 2. Prisoners in Belmarsh are not routinely tortured, but Assange in particular is being singled out for a surprise helping of torture in Belmarsh. Neither TFA, nor its sources provide any evidence for either of those two things. What they do provide is evidence for the much less incendiary, and less surprising claim of: 1. Assange has not gotten any better since his self-imposed exile. > Doctors have observed, reported, documented, and endorsed that he is being tortured. No, they haven't. If you disagree, please cite sources. Ones that don't do the bait-and-switch of pointing at the medical problems he acquired during his pre-incarceration living conditions, and using that to 'prove' the entirely unrelated claim that he is being tortured in Belmarsh. I strongly doubt that such sources exist, because if they did, publications like TFA would directly, and unambiguously cite them, instead of dancing around the truth.
        93po 7y ago
        Assange is a political prisoner and clearly his treatment and situation is different from the rest, so a comparison isn't helpful. The source is the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. It's linked in the very top of TFA. Sorry you don't like the truth and are yourself trying to dance around it
        vkou 7y ago
        Why does it matter if he's a political prisoner, or a shoplifter? He's either being tortured, or he's not. > The source is the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. I have read TFA, I have read its sources, and I see no evidence that points to him currently being tortured, as I have said three times in this thread. Is there a specific passage that you would like to highlight?
  - ge0rg 7y ago
    It is our opinion that Mr Assange requires urgent expert medical assessment of both his physical and psychological state of health. Any medical treatment indicated should be administered in a properly equipped and expertly staffed university teaching hospital (tertiary care). Were such urgent assessment and treatment not to take place, we have real concerns, on the evidence currently available, that Mr Assange could die in prison. The medical situation is thereby urgent. There is no time to lose.
    - three_seagrass 7y ago
      It's based on observation in court only. Also, Assange's health was in strong decline before he was released from the Embassy, which could be a factor: https://medium.com/@doctors4assange/concerns-of-medical-doctors-about-the-plight-of-mr-julian-assange-ffb09a5dd588 https://medium.com/@doctors4assange/concerns-of-medical-doct... I'm not saying there isn't torture happening, just that there isn't much evidence to the claim that he's being tortured right now.
  - KerryJones 7y ago
    Does it matter? He's limping, pale, unable to answer basic questions. "Oh, it's only waterboarding, that's not real torture..." Torture is torture.
  - lastres0rt 7y ago
    The article implies that the 7 years he spent in the embassy prior to his arrest amounted to torture. IMO, at best we could dub his deterioration in the embassy as "self-inflicted", or more accurately institutional neglect on the part of the governments involved.
  - cjhveal 7y ago
    "... prior to his detention in Belmarsh prison in conditions amounting to solitary confinement, spent almost 7 years restricted to a few rooms in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London. Here, he had been deprived of fresh air, sunlight, the ability to move and exercise freely, and access to adequate medical care." Extensive solitary confinement is criticized as a form psychological torture. If you're familiar with the US detention system, the treatment of Assange might seem pretty commonplace, the international community generally considers this a form of torture.
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      Which, one, is Assange's fault for staying the embassy rather than facing the court system. But you could give him that if he truly believed that there was a conspiracy against him and that he couldn't get actual justice. Then, two, it's Ecuador's fault that he's confined to a few rooms, can't exercise, can't get sunlight, etc. I mean, doesn't their embassy have windows somewhere? Everyone tries to make this Britain's fault somehow. I can't see it.
totiousti 7y ago
it is funny to see how public opinion shifted once the narrative of him being a russian agent having helped trump appeared. People hate trump more than they hate being lied to
- 93po 7y ago
  It's ridiculous that anyone can have anything but abundant thanks for this man. He shows us the war crimes, lying, cheating, and hypocrisy of our nations' leaders. And yet people want to see him imprisoned or killed because it happened to be against their political preferences. Awful.
dang 7y ago
Please don't post unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to Hacker News. "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

DubiousPusher 7y ago

Maybe this man's situation can call attention to the fact that this is the standard of care for most people in jail or prison in America.

freeli 7y ago
Except that he's being held in the UK, so I'm not sure what the point is of your criticism of the US prison system.
- DubiousPusher 7y ago
  My point is that a lot of U.S. citizens will be reading this and if they are feeling a healthy dose is concern for Mr. Assange they should be aware that his essentially the fate of many of their countrymen.
  - freeli 7y ago
    How is comparing what Assange is (reportedly) experiencing in a UK prison in any way valid for criticizing the US prison system? I know we're supposed to assume the least objectionable interpretation of someone's comments, but this really sounds like a weird pivot designed to push some sort of anti-US agenda, when there's NOTHING related to the conditions of the US prison system even relevant to this particular discussion.
    - DubiousPusher 7y ago
      Health care during incarceration is a problem most places in the world. As far as I can tell in the U.K. and Europe it is generally better. But what Mr. Assange is experiencing in the U.K. is pretty comparable to the U.S. If Americans are going to bother to fret over his situation you should probably have a similar or greater level of concern for what is going on in your own country which you actually have some hope changing. To have special concern for this one person is just trading on fame, you might as well be following tabloids.

fckuuumods 7y ago

It's so awesome how moderators allow for a free and open discussion on HN

dang 7y ago
Users flagged this post. Moderators didn't touch it, or even see it until now. Given that there was a large Assange thread yesterday (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22351183 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22351183), and a large thread on the Assange/torture question a few weeks ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22201381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22201381), I don't think this letter contains significant-enough new information to support a solid HN discussion. This topic is divisive enough as it is, and in the absence of significant new information, threads tend to degrade even faster than usual.

xwdv 7y ago

Yes, end the torture and medical neglect by simply ending his life. Julian Assange will never be a free man again and there’s nothing left for him to contribute as some rehabilitated member of society. Just kill him off, his story is over.

dang 7y ago
It's not ok to post like this to HN, and we ban accounts that do it, so please don't. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

jancsika 7y ago

My uncle was a machinist in a large U.S. company back in the early 2000s when the employees decided to end the torture and medical neglect of Julian Assange. According to him all it ended up doing was stifling innovation and rewarding mediocre lifers over the high performing employees.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

jorge-d 7y ago

I'm quite shoked by the level of the comments regarding Assange. Whatever you think about the character is irrelevant. Law should be the basis on any action taken against him, whether he's a-hole or not. Now you can argue on whether his actions were legal (I mean, he broke US law but he's not US citizen nor living in the US so that's debatable). However there is ZERO legal basis on having someone not being taken care of while in custody.

mullingitover 7y ago
> However there is ZERO legal basis on having someone not being taken care of while in custody. Most of the health issues in question here arose when he was not in custody, but rather in self-imposed exile in the embassy. He could've walked out at any point and been treated, but that would've meant accepting the consequences for the laws he'd broken.
- 93po 7y ago
  Most of the health issues around him are being raised as a result of his stay in prison, not his asylum in the embassy.
  - mullingitover 7y ago
    Yeah, no. Read that article again, and the linked Medium post they're talking about. They're talking about health issues during his voluntary exile at the embassy. From this article: > On Nov 22, 2019, we, a group of more than 60 medical doctors, wrote to the UK Home Secretary to express our serious concerns about the physical and mental health of Julian Assange.[1]In our letter,[1] we documented a history of denial of access to health care and prolonged psychological torture. I have no sympathy for this group's claims, because he was absolutely not denied medical care. He had an outstanding arrest warrant that was completely valid, and he chose to accept the consequences of skipping bail. It's like a child running away from home because he didn't want to face prosecution for sexual assault, and then crying to the press that his parents aren't taking care of him while he's living in a flophouse. [1] https://medium.com/@doctorseh4assange/concerns-of-medical-doctors-about-the-plight-of-mr-julian-assange-ffb09a5dd588 https://medium.com/@doctorseh4assange/concerns-of-medical-do...

geekpowa 7y ago

“Mr Assange showed all symptoms typical for prolonged exposure to psychological torture, including extreme stress, chronic anxiety and intense psychological trauma.” Emphasis mine. His terrible mental health condition is not under dispute. But I am disputing the use of the word torture, as opposed to 'symptoms typical for'. Torture (noun): the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or in order to force them to do or say something. While he was in the embassy he was fugitive and definitely under duress to turn himself in, no doubt. What rights and privileges is someone entitled to as a fugitive in comparison to their rights and privileges once in custody? My bias is anti Assange, for some common reasons some people are anti, I try to keep an open mind and be a compassionate person and feel compassion for his terrible mental health circumstances, yet articles like this, I read it with a pile of skepticism and just feels weak, lacking in evidence, overstating things and drawing inferences I think are poorly supported.

93po 7y ago
It is very lacking in empathy to refer to him as a fugitive rather than someone in asylum. Any fugitive status he may have had has been proven to be political in nature.
- geekpowa 7y ago
  "Any fugitive status he may have had has been proven to be political in nature." Proven you say? Things asylum seekers typically say: "If Obama grants Manning clemency Assange will agree to US extradition despite clear unconstitutionality of DoJ case"
  - 93po 7y ago
    Yes, proven. I don't know what relevance your quote has.

nemo 7y ago

I really do not like Julian Assange as a person, I do not admire his work. He's a fraud, a con-man, and might also be a criminal. But a critical measure of a society is how equal justice is for all, even those hated by society. Tolerance of the abuse of prisoners or torture is a grave moral failure no matter who the perp is. Maybe the docs are all duped by the scammers around Assange, but it looks pretty abusive not to transfer him to a hospital.

93po 7y ago
Please post substantial evidence that Assange has conned or defrauded anyone. Wikileaks has a 100% track record.
- nemo 7y ago
  No matter how many of Assange's lies I enumerate, his fans just brush them off since they don't want to see the truth about Assange - he's simpler when he's a good guy rather than an abusive narcissist. But google 'assange deceit' and related and you'll find plenty. Wikileaks has been working through cutouts with Russian intelligence for a while so the track record is pretty problematic. https://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/09/09/wikileaks-hid-syrian-deposits-in-russian-bank https://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/09/09/wikileaks-hi...
  - 93po 7y ago
    Russian connection is conspiracy theory and there's no evidence. Go Google "flat Earth" and you'll find a lot of results too
    - nemo 7y ago
      I've investigated the evidence quite carefully. The article I linked to refers to some very damning evidence for one case. The Mueller investigation found solid evidence of WL forwarding DNC docs collected by Russian intelligence, and at this point security researcher expert consensus is that Russia was the perp and WL the front. Wikileaks biases also show in who they target and what they ignore. They've repeatedly downplayed leaks that are damaging to the Kremlin.

Seenso 7y ago

Honestly, stuff like this just debases the word "torture." Waterboarding is clearly torture. Undergoing prolonged periods of solitary confinement while in detention is arguably torture. However, choosing to avoid needed medical care during an attempt to flee law enforcement is definitely in the "not torture" category. It's self-inflicted harm. Self-inflicted harm doesn't elicit the same kind of moral outrage that true torture does. These efforts seem to me to be an attempt to exploit that moral outrage in order to benefit a particular person. If successful, the lack of clarity that introduces just creates extra doubt in cases of true torture that blunts the outrage. Here are some similar cases: After conducting a bunch of bombings, Eric Rudolph fled the FBI by living in a forest for years, feeding himself by gathering acorns and dumpster diving [1]. His choice to do that to himself is similar to what Assange did, and was not torture, either. Rudolph's brother, bizarrely, decided to cut off his own hand with a saw to protest the FBI's treatment of his brother and its surveillance of his family [2]. If the FBI had done that to him, it'd have been a gruesome case of torture, but since he did it to himself, it's definitely not torture. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph [2] http://www-cgi.cnn.com/US/9803/09/briefs.pm/rudolph.amputation/ http://www-cgi.cnn.com/US/9803/09/briefs.pm/rudolph.amputati...

93po 7y ago
The very real and substantial claims about torture and mostly about his time in prison in the UK - not his time on the asylum, though I would still say that his asylum treatment was inhumane and violated his rights.
- Seenso 7y ago
  > The very real and substantial claims about torture and mostly about his time in prison in the UK - not his time on the asylum Can you give details of the actual practices of torture alleged here? Scanning this and a few other things, the only details I'm seeing are complaints of how he was treated in the embassy (which IMHO were self-inflicted), and some nonspecific observations that he looks like he's in worse health now that he's actually gone to jail. > I would still say that his asylum treatment was inhumane and violated his rights. I can't see how that could be without essentially creating a lawless situation, where law enforcement is bizarrely tasked with supporting fugitives and assisting with their escape.