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Context: As of the beginning of 2020 all aircraft are required to have ADS-B out capability. This means that they periodically broadcast their GPS position une

Context: As of the beginning of 2020 all aircraft are required to have ADS-B out capability. This means that they periodically broadcast their GPS position unencrypted, along with their speed, altitude, heading and tail number. Most networks like Flight Aware allow owners to blacklist aircraft such that their tracks do not appear on the site. This is typical of corporate aviation departments and private jet owners as they don't want their movements to be available to rivals/hedge funds or the media. Additionally military aircraft are typically not reported. Edit: also, for those who are unaware, unlike license plates which are generally unsearchable, tail-numbers as reported by ADS-B are publicly searchable with registration and history information available on the FAA website: https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N887WM https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?N...

TigeriusKirk 7y ago
Not quite all aircraft are required to have ADS-B in all situations, there are a number of edge cases out there. But close enough, I suppose, and most planes people would want to track are required to have it. However, there's also a new privacy initiative that allows aircraft to fly under temporary ids. The FAA will still know who they are, but for 3rd parties it will become much more difficult to determine. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/december/24/ads-b-privacy-now-available https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/december/2...
- AWildC182 7y ago
  Good points all around. I figured the exceptions were esoteric enough to not bother with immediately but are very valid. I'm interested in seeing where the proposal goes. I'm not sure where I stand on the issue but I'm curious of others opinions.
- ianburrell 7y ago
  Also, the US allows using UAT on 978 MHz for ADS-B requirement for planes below 18,000 ft. Most SDRs only decode 1090 MHz signal. It is possible to decode 978 MHz but requires more work to support both.
  - superkuh 7y ago
    I know what you mean, you mean the software for SDRs is mostly geared towards tuning to 1090 MHz and decoding ADS-B pulses there. But to be clear: the SDR's tuners are rarely limited that way. Most can tune to 978 MHz even easier than 1090 MHz. Covering the entire VHF to UHF range is pretty typical.
    - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
      When I've set up P25 receivers, it's common to use 2-4 RTL-SDR's to do the bulk of listening. Each rtl-sdr gets set with a different center freq, and the control channel tells when and where to listen. You can build a P25 listener for less than $100.
      - someguydave 7y ago
        which software do you use to demodulate P25? gnuradio?
        crankylinuxuser 7y ago
        I use https://github.com/robotastic/trunk-recorder https://github.com/robotastic/trunk-recorder You'll use https://www.radioreference.com https://www.radioreference.com and get the appropriate control and voice channels for your area. You'll also get the talkgroups and put them in a CSV. From there, you'll use http://garvas.org/trunk-recorder/ http://garvas.org/trunk-recorder/ to determine how many RTL-SDR dongles (or others) you'll need, along with their respective center frequencies. Note that you'll copy/paste the relevant control/voice line for your p25 from radioreferece.com From there, just define where to store the files on the drive, and off it goes. There's a python webserver ( https://github.com/ScanOC/trunk-player https://github.com/ScanOC/trunk-player ) you can install for on-prem, and/or you can also upload it to openmhz website ( https://github.com/robotastic/trunk-recorder/wiki/Uploading-to-OpenMHz https://github.com/robotastic/trunk-recorder/wiki/Uploading-... ).
        7y ago
- ATsch 7y ago
  I hope not. Unlike car license plates, if you own a plane what you're doing with it is very much in the publics interest to know, especially if you don't want people to know. They can have their privacy while they aren't flying polluting multi-million dollar planes through the country and above our buildings.
  - dvtrn 7y ago
    Private Crop dusting pilots flying over cornfields in southern Nebraska aren’t flying over your buildings mate.
    - ATsch 7y ago
      Private Crop dusing pilots aren't trying to hide themselves from the airplane maps, so this is irrelevant to the point.
      - dvtrn 7y ago
        I would beg to differ and could probably accurately guess that several ag pilots I know would as well.
      - tjohns 7y ago
        I'd say they're more likely to be hiding themselves from the map than your average commercial flight. Pilots of small aircraft are just as sensitive about giving up their privacy as anyone else. Would you want your name, address, and position broadcast on the internet every time you get in your car?
        dvtrn 7y ago
        Not just sensitive about their privacy, but there is a particularly ornery set of opinions among rural pilots regarding the government “telling me how to tend my own farm” which I think is at the root of what we see at the surface as being “privacy concerns”. So when someone says these types of aviators aren’t trying to hide themselves I’m highly skeptical on just how well-versed the speaker is with the issues and perspectives this class people have with more and more expensive operating requirements being put on them with diminishing returns for their compliance. Then again, this perspective isn't in line with "rich moguls and their private personal jets" and represents a blue-collar voice that gets left out of discussions in this community with a frustrating frequency; so I'm really not surprised, either. Hell go talk to some ground-based truckers how they feel about having their routes tracked by logistics companies who book them for loads. There’s videos all over YouTube from long haul truckers complaining about faceless entities demanding they install tracking systems or download GPS enabled apps and the constant complaint is “don’t tell me how to drive my truck" These operators want autonomy.
jacquesm 7y ago
I wonder whether those hedge fund people have smartphones and if they do whether they choose Apple, Android or do not care. That would be pretty valuable information in the wrong hands, all it takes is one silly game with a permission too many and your goose is cooked.
- preinheimer 7y ago
  On apple at least there's a lot of repeat asks these days. It doesn't just ask "can X use location data", it asks you a day later "hey X has been using location data while in the background do you still want to allow this". Then again more days later, and again. On iOS at least I think this door is closing.
- kortilla 7y ago
  I think you’re misunderstanding. Hedge fund people want the locations of CEOs, CFOs, mergers and acquisitions lawyers, etc because they can infer a lot about potential deals (or issues). Nobody usually cares where the hedge fund analysts themselves are.
plugger 7y ago
Correction Context: As of the beginning of 2020 all aircraft in the United States are required to have ADS-B out capability.
- xylophone 7y ago
  some exceptions: As such, we have concluded that the same aircraft excluded from the transponder requirement are excluded from the ADS-B Out equipage. Accordingly, an aircraft that subsequently has been installed with batteries or an electric starter would not be required to equip for ADS-B Out. The FAA may consider a technical amendment in the future to remove any confusion due to the discrepancy between the language in§ 91.215(a)(5) and§ 91.225(e). https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2017/schober%20-%20(2017)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ag... see also https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/january/19/ads-b-requirement-clarified-for-nonelectrical-aircraft https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/january/19...
- jdubner 7y ago
  This is not true. ADS-B OUT is required to fly in certain classes of airspace, above 10,000 feet, etc. -- anywhere a transponder is currently required. That's all. That leaves a lot of airspace in the US. Someone flying his C182 in eastern Wyoming may not bother with it as he does not see any benefit. Here in western Oregon, I see the benefit (weather and traffic via ADS-B IN) and have equipped my aircraft even though I (mostly) avoid the airspace where it is required.
  - plugger 7y ago
    Thanks for the info. I had read it was becoming mandatory in the US in 2020. That was in the context of Australian regulations where aircraft still aren't forced to have ADS-B.
nkurz 7y ago
> Most networks like Flight Aware allow owners to blacklist aircraft such that their tracks do not appear on the site. Do you know more about how this is done? Is there a fixed price list for this service? Can one "buy" it online? Is there some sort of registry that is shared between networks? > Additionally military aircraft are typically not reported. While I'm sure the military can turn off transponders at will, I presume (?) they often fly with them on. Can these signals be tracked with "standard" gear when they are on?
- Maxious 7y ago
  The FAA runs the blocking programs, there's no fee https://www.fly.faa.gov/ASDI/asdi.html https://www.fly.faa.gov/ASDI/asdi.html https://ladd.faa.gov/ https://ladd.faa.gov/ A copy of the ASDI block list is on https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/faa-list-of-blocked-aircraft-barr-listasdi-block-list-34713/#file-126912 https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/faa... The FAA also has a new program to hand out pseudonymous aircraft identifiers via commercial providers so there probably is a fee for that https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/privacy/ https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/privacy/
  - adsbx-james 7y ago
    FlightAware sells blocking services and dashboards. Don't be fooled, the privacy lobbying is only to make more money for FlightAware and FlightRada24. Feeders sending them free data for fake enterprise dashboards and fake "$89 value" accounts have made David Baker a multi-millionaire.
    - flak48 7y ago
      *Daniel Baker
- kitteh 7y ago
  I've heard that the first few years of flightaware they made most of their money in taking requests for not publishing specific aircraft. As for military stuff - they have additional capabilities for their transponders that provide for responding to interrogators (think identify friend or foe - IFF systems). They're not supposed to disable transponders in the required airspace - they've got to comply with the FAA rules too. There are situations where ATC transfers control over to the military where they are free to do more things. Like in a hot military operating area (MOA) or when ATC transfers traffic separation to the military (MARSA).
Mountain_Skies 7y ago
This will be an interesting wrinkle for US college athletics. Coaches defecting to another university after secret negotiations has become very common. Watching the flights of university owned aircraft and those of prominent boosters has become a way of detecting that such negotiations might be taking place. While public universities would have a difficult time justifying paying to hide their flight data, private universities and boosters have both the means and motive to do so. A source like ADS-B Exchange neutralizes this tactic.
sandos 7y ago
I don't believe private owners are the most interesting black-listed things. Military aircraft anyone? Who doesn't want to see those :) I noticed a helo circling with a huuge spotlight a mile or so from my house, and the skies were empty according to flightradar24, but ads-b exchange showd me that it was a police helicopter. I can see the reason for blacklisting those, so the people being chased cant easily track the helicopter? Otoh theyre bloody obvious due to their noisiness imo so I dont think it would matter one bit for the 1% of criminals aware enough to use flightradar24 to somehow evade capture..
zerd 7y ago
I wonder if any of the security threats brought up in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv1j3GbgLk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv1j3GbgLk has been addressed. (Fun demo at 42:00)

TigeriusKirk 7y ago

Not quite all aircraft are required to have ADS-B in all situations, there are a number of edge cases out there. But close enough, I suppose, and most planes people would want to track are required to have it. However, there's also a new privacy initiative that allows aircraft to fly under temporary ids. The FAA will still know who they are, but for 3rd parties it will become much more difficult to determine. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/december/24/ads-b-privacy-now-available https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/december/2...

AWildC182 7y ago
Good points all around. I figured the exceptions were esoteric enough to not bother with immediately but are very valid. I'm interested in seeing where the proposal goes. I'm not sure where I stand on the issue but I'm curious of others opinions.
ianburrell 7y ago
Also, the US allows using UAT on 978 MHz for ADS-B requirement for planes below 18,000 ft. Most SDRs only decode 1090 MHz signal. It is possible to decode 978 MHz but requires more work to support both.
- superkuh 7y ago
  I know what you mean, you mean the software for SDRs is mostly geared towards tuning to 1090 MHz and decoding ADS-B pulses there. But to be clear: the SDR's tuners are rarely limited that way. Most can tune to 978 MHz even easier than 1090 MHz. Covering the entire VHF to UHF range is pretty typical.
  - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
    When I've set up P25 receivers, it's common to use 2-4 RTL-SDR's to do the bulk of listening. Each rtl-sdr gets set with a different center freq, and the control channel tells when and where to listen. You can build a P25 listener for less than $100.
    - someguydave 7y ago
      which software do you use to demodulate P25? gnuradio?
      - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
        I use https://github.com/robotastic/trunk-recorder https://github.com/robotastic/trunk-recorder You'll use https://www.radioreference.com https://www.radioreference.com and get the appropriate control and voice channels for your area. You'll also get the talkgroups and put them in a CSV. From there, you'll use http://garvas.org/trunk-recorder/ http://garvas.org/trunk-recorder/ to determine how many RTL-SDR dongles (or others) you'll need, along with their respective center frequencies. Note that you'll copy/paste the relevant control/voice line for your p25 from radioreferece.com From there, just define where to store the files on the drive, and off it goes. There's a python webserver ( https://github.com/ScanOC/trunk-player https://github.com/ScanOC/trunk-player ) you can install for on-prem, and/or you can also upload it to openmhz website ( https://github.com/robotastic/trunk-recorder/wiki/Uploading-to-OpenMHz https://github.com/robotastic/trunk-recorder/wiki/Uploading-... ).
        7y ago
ATsch 7y ago
I hope not. Unlike car license plates, if you own a plane what you're doing with it is very much in the publics interest to know, especially if you don't want people to know. They can have their privacy while they aren't flying polluting multi-million dollar planes through the country and above our buildings.
- dvtrn 7y ago
  Private Crop dusting pilots flying over cornfields in southern Nebraska aren’t flying over your buildings mate.
  - ATsch 7y ago
    Private Crop dusing pilots aren't trying to hide themselves from the airplane maps, so this is irrelevant to the point.
    - dvtrn 7y ago
      I would beg to differ and could probably accurately guess that several ag pilots I know would as well.
    - tjohns 7y ago
      I'd say they're more likely to be hiding themselves from the map than your average commercial flight. Pilots of small aircraft are just as sensitive about giving up their privacy as anyone else. Would you want your name, address, and position broadcast on the internet every time you get in your car?
      - dvtrn 7y ago
        Not just sensitive about their privacy, but there is a particularly ornery set of opinions among rural pilots regarding the government “telling me how to tend my own farm” which I think is at the root of what we see at the surface as being “privacy concerns”. So when someone says these types of aviators aren’t trying to hide themselves I’m highly skeptical on just how well-versed the speaker is with the issues and perspectives this class people have with more and more expensive operating requirements being put on them with diminishing returns for their compliance. Then again, this perspective isn't in line with "rich moguls and their private personal jets" and represents a blue-collar voice that gets left out of discussions in this community with a frustrating frequency; so I'm really not surprised, either. Hell go talk to some ground-based truckers how they feel about having their routes tracked by logistics companies who book them for loads. There’s videos all over YouTube from long haul truckers complaining about faceless entities demanding they install tracking systems or download GPS enabled apps and the constant complaint is “don’t tell me how to drive my truck" These operators want autonomy.

jacquesm 7y ago

I wonder whether those hedge fund people have smartphones and if they do whether they choose Apple, Android or do not care. That would be pretty valuable information in the wrong hands, all it takes is one silly game with a permission too many and your goose is cooked.

preinheimer 7y ago
On apple at least there's a lot of repeat asks these days. It doesn't just ask "can X use location data", it asks you a day later "hey X has been using location data while in the background do you still want to allow this". Then again more days later, and again. On iOS at least I think this door is closing.
kortilla 7y ago
I think you’re misunderstanding. Hedge fund people want the locations of CEOs, CFOs, mergers and acquisitions lawyers, etc because they can infer a lot about potential deals (or issues). Nobody usually cares where the hedge fund analysts themselves are.

plugger 7y ago

Correction Context: As of the beginning of 2020 all aircraft in the United States are required to have ADS-B out capability.

xylophone 7y ago
some exceptions: As such, we have concluded that the same aircraft excluded from the transponder requirement are excluded from the ADS-B Out equipage. Accordingly, an aircraft that subsequently has been installed with batteries or an electric starter would not be required to equip for ADS-B Out. The FAA may consider a technical amendment in the future to remove any confusion due to the discrepancy between the language in§ 91.215(a)(5) and§ 91.225(e). https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2017/schober%20-%20(2017)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ag... see also https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/january/19/ads-b-requirement-clarified-for-nonelectrical-aircraft https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/january/19...
jdubner 7y ago
This is not true. ADS-B OUT is required to fly in certain classes of airspace, above 10,000 feet, etc. -- anywhere a transponder is currently required. That's all. That leaves a lot of airspace in the US. Someone flying his C182 in eastern Wyoming may not bother with it as he does not see any benefit. Here in western Oregon, I see the benefit (weather and traffic via ADS-B IN) and have equipped my aircraft even though I (mostly) avoid the airspace where it is required.
- plugger 7y ago
  Thanks for the info. I had read it was becoming mandatory in the US in 2020. That was in the context of Australian regulations where aircraft still aren't forced to have ADS-B.

nkurz 7y ago

> Most networks like Flight Aware allow owners to blacklist aircraft such that their tracks do not appear on the site. Do you know more about how this is done? Is there a fixed price list for this service? Can one "buy" it online? Is there some sort of registry that is shared between networks? > Additionally military aircraft are typically not reported. While I'm sure the military can turn off transponders at will, I presume (?) they often fly with them on. Can these signals be tracked with "standard" gear when they are on?

Maxious 7y ago
The FAA runs the blocking programs, there's no fee https://www.fly.faa.gov/ASDI/asdi.html https://www.fly.faa.gov/ASDI/asdi.html https://ladd.faa.gov/ https://ladd.faa.gov/ A copy of the ASDI block list is on https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/faa-list-of-blocked-aircraft-barr-listasdi-block-list-34713/#file-126912 https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/faa... The FAA also has a new program to hand out pseudonymous aircraft identifiers via commercial providers so there probably is a fee for that https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/privacy/ https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/privacy/
- adsbx-james 7y ago
  FlightAware sells blocking services and dashboards. Don't be fooled, the privacy lobbying is only to make more money for FlightAware and FlightRada24. Feeders sending them free data for fake enterprise dashboards and fake "$89 value" accounts have made David Baker a multi-millionaire.
  - flak48 7y ago
    *Daniel Baker
kitteh 7y ago
I've heard that the first few years of flightaware they made most of their money in taking requests for not publishing specific aircraft. As for military stuff - they have additional capabilities for their transponders that provide for responding to interrogators (think identify friend or foe - IFF systems). They're not supposed to disable transponders in the required airspace - they've got to comply with the FAA rules too. There are situations where ATC transfers control over to the military where they are free to do more things. Like in a hot military operating area (MOA) or when ATC transfers traffic separation to the military (MARSA).

Mountain_Skies 7y ago

This will be an interesting wrinkle for US college athletics. Coaches defecting to another university after secret negotiations has become very common. Watching the flights of university owned aircraft and those of prominent boosters has become a way of detecting that such negotiations might be taking place. While public universities would have a difficult time justifying paying to hide their flight data, private universities and boosters have both the means and motive to do so. A source like ADS-B Exchange neutralizes this tactic.

sandos 7y ago

I don't believe private owners are the most interesting black-listed things. Military aircraft anyone? Who doesn't want to see those :) I noticed a helo circling with a huuge spotlight a mile or so from my house, and the skies were empty according to flightradar24, but ads-b exchange showd me that it was a police helicopter. I can see the reason for blacklisting those, so the people being chased cant easily track the helicopter? Otoh theyre bloody obvious due to their noisiness imo so I dont think it would matter one bit for the 1% of criminals aware enough to use flightradar24 to somehow evade capture..

zerd 7y ago

I wonder if any of the security threats brought up in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv1j3GbgLk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv1j3GbgLk has been addressed. (Fun demo at 42:00)